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Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

reuters.com

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Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#41

Post by alexandercrohde »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up.

It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#42

Post by kube-system »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13
advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

All US states recognize at-will employment. This does not mean that people can be fired for any reason, there are numerous laws that define reasons that are prohibited.

But yes, shit talking your employer is generally not one of those reasons.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#43

Post by alexandercrohde »

wushupork wrote: post #36
mc32 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here’s my take. If I think a company is doing wrong and I believe I should stand against it, I would then consider that taking a stand will likely result in termination; but if I believe strongly then I’d do it because of principle not be cause a law is protecting me. That’s not to say I disagree with workers’ protections only tat if you believe strongly then protections or not should not be much of a consideration.…

I agree, but I should not be surprised if they terminated me because of it.

Maybe not surprised, but morally outraged certainly

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#44

Post by forgotmylogin2 »

advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

> Amazon is straight up firing these people for expressing their personal opinions.

That's not exactly uncommon in the modern world. Especially with the prevalence of social media, expressing your opinion on anything publicly could cost you your job. Same thing happened to James Damore.

If you want to remain employed, you need to be quite cautious about what you post on non-anonymous social media. In fact, I'd advise most people not to post on social media at all.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#46

Post by ajross »

I think the real story here is not so much whether or not it's OK to fire troublemakers, but how Amazon got itself into an unrecoverably antagonistic relationship with its own workforce.

The flip side to being a general union buster and hard-nosed employer advocate during "peacetime" is that you lose the moral high ground in crisis and have no where to turn to but more employee-alienating policies. I mean, let's be honest: Amazon's warehouse workers look like heroes right now. And they need stuff, that they don't need under normal circumstances. And the public, on the whole, wants to give it to them. Yet without an existing healthy relationship, the only tool in the union's box is to threaten work stoppage. And the only tool Bezos has is to fire people trying to keep a lid on the thing.

And now we've seen that it's metastasized, and he's having to fire tech workers now too. Needless to say, this isn't where Amazon management would have wanted to be.

So folks: the next time a union calls up and wants to sort out a deal, talk with them and work something out. In the current world, it's hard to see anything but good guys and bad guys. And the workers are the good guys.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#47

Post by Noughmad »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #41
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up. It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

In that case, people should make it illegal. Like they did in most other countries.

The US is full of outrage about companies doing unethical things but nobody wants to make unethical things illegal.

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#48

Post by mc32 »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #43
wushupork wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I should not be surprised if they terminated me because of it.

Maybe not surprised, but morally outraged certainly

I’m not sure. Let’s say me and my neighbor borrow things from each other and have an okay relationship. Maybe some time later they think I underpaid them for a used car when they find out I sold it for double the price. They don’t talk to me and we’re not friends any longer.

Do I get outraged at them? Should they be outraged at me? Did anyone of us do anything illegal?

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#49

Post by atomi »

alexandercrohde wrote: post #41
A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender, but in US most of the employment is at will. In practical terms, they can fire you for any or no reason at all. There are practicalities that come into play that have to do with unemployment insurance and whatnot, but company policy violation is a defensible 'cause' for firing. I am not a lawyer nor am I condoning this, but them is the facts. edit: added play

I think people are outraged not because it's illegal, but because it's unconscionable. I think the general understanding is people shouldn't have outside-work activities be held against them, maybe it's time for the law to catch up. It's pretty easy to come up with a lot of absurd and "legal" at-will policies (e.g. we'll fire anybody who watches porn)

> Uhh, I don't want to be Amazon defender,

This should give you a hint about this person's intention. Their argument is a classic appeal to authority.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Re: Amazon fires two UX designers critical of warehouse working conditions

#50

Post by [deleted] »

advisedwang wrote: post #7

> “We support every employee’s right to criticize their employer’s working conditions, but that does not come with blanket immunity against any and all internal policies,” Herdener said. > Amazon’s external communications policy prohibits employees from commenting publicly on its business without corporate justification and approval from executives. Herdener previously said the policy did not allow employees to “publ…

[deleted]
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