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Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

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Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#41

Post by techopoly »

skratlo wrote: post #12
georgewsinger wrote: post #9

In case people are curious what it's like to work in VR, here's a demo of me using Simula: https://youtu.be/FWLuwG91HnI I would argue that working in VR is fundamentally superior to working in PCs/laptops. It's basically 10x the screens, focus, and work immersion. Simula's text quality is also very good (getting around the eye fatigue present in older VR Desktops).

Well looking at the video, I mean, I can have dozens workspaces with hundreds of windows (if I need to) and navigate them with moving just my fingers, whereas you are apparently breaking your neck to navigate more than 3 windows. I think what you're doing is cool and has to be done for the sake of exploration, but I would really, really focus on navigation. Also, how are you supposed to focus on text, when reading or…

Virtual Desktop already has many customizable features that allow you to work the way you're describing. I've worked in it before, and it was very immersive, though there was of course some fatigue.

You can have just one window at a time, and with a good headset, the wiggle is not significant. You can even adjust it so that your workspace follows you when your head turns.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#42

Post by vsareto »

ollifi wrote: post #24

Looks cool and will try it out. That said, these things always feel like old paradigm stuffed in to new technology. Bit similar like when film was new people kept using it to record theater. It took years to come up with editing, not having to start scene by people entering the stage etc. Now that we have unlimited spatial space to manipulate the thing we come up with is to fill it with 2d screens.

There aren't a lot of jobs that can really use the 'space' provided by VR. I think the adoption here would have to drastically outpace multiple monitors and OS workspaces and keyboard shortcuts. I can easily get to 10-20 tabs in VS Code or a browser, but my attention is only really ever on one at a time. If I have to search through them, I'll have to do that on a monitor or in VR. I might be able to organize better in 3D: HTML files on the left, CSS files on the right, JS in the middle, backend reference above, tools and console below (like 5 monitors in a plus pattern).

I'd need probably a dozen or so channels of information that I had to cycle between quickly to convince me, given I've gotten used to multi-monitors, workspaces, and keyboard shortcuts. Maybe some futuristic high level analyst job that needs to look through lots of different kinds of information (geographical, text, videos, etc) at once.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#43

Post by hello_there »

This looks very nice! I've been thinking about something like this for quite a while. May I suggest two additional features that I would love to see in such a window manager:

1. A way to neatly arrange all the windows on a virtual sphere that surrounds the user, possibly arranging them automatically in a similar manner as a tiling window manager.

2. A way to rotate the before-mentioned sphere around you without forcing the user to rotate it's head. This would avoid much of the neck strain. It could be done by, for example, holding a button on the keyboard while moving the mouse or by a simple keyboard shortcut to rotate the sphere by X degrees in any direction.

This concept could also be extended to virtual desktops where each desktop is a sphere around the next, like an onion, with the ability to "zoom" in to the next desktop.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#45

Post by todd8 »

kanetw wrote: post #20
skratlo wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well looking at the video, I mean, I can have dozens workspaces with hundreds of windows (if I need to) and navigate them with moving just my fingers, whereas you are apparently breaking your neck to navigate more than 3 windows. I think what you're doing is cool and has to be done for the sake of exploration, but I would really, really focus on navigation. Also, how are you supposed to focus on text, when reading or…

Navigation is one of the things we definitely need to improve upon. I think the wiggling is actually kind of natural -- you don't notice your head or eye movements when you do them automatically, but it might be exacerbated in VR. The fixing is an interesting idea, we'll try it out. I'm a bit worried it might feel weird in VR.

Yes, there is a thing called corollary discharge in the human visual system that keeps the world steady as one glances around (in the real world). Changing the direction one is looking causes the image to shift rapidly on the retina, yet perceptually we see a world that is not wiggling.

Corollary discharge[1] causes the brain to “subtract” out the motion of the image on the retina. It happens when our nervous system instructs the eyes to look in another direction. You can have someone else move your eyes or even do it yourself by pressing gently on the side of the eyeball with a fingertip on top of the lid. Wiggling one eye this way is not supported by the hardware of the eye and produces a very noticeable wiggly view of the real world.

I mentioned subtracting out the motion going on in the visual system. Experiments suggest that something like this is happening. If a muscle paralyzing drug is injected into the eye’s muscles it causes a wiggly world because the intent to glance somewhere causes both an ineffective command to move the eye, producing no real movement of the image in the retina while the triggered corollary discharge subtracts the intended motion from the still image and causes a perceived motion (in the opposite direction).

[1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2807735/

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#46

Post by kanetw »

hello_there wrote: post #43

This looks very nice! I've been thinking about something like this for quite a while. May I suggest two additional features that I would love to see in such a window manager: 1. A way to neatly arrange all the windows on a virtual sphere that surrounds the user, possibly arranging them automatically in a similar manner as a tiling window manager. 2. A way to rotate the before-mentioned sphere around you without forci…

Great ideas. I've started a Github project to keep track of usability improvements and added them there.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#47

Post by wincy »

stronglikedan wrote: post #39
kanetw wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wear glasses and VR is fine for me. I know some people who can't use it with glasses, but I think that's for clearance reasons. There's prescription lenses for headsets, but they're fairly expensive and IMO only worth it if you use VR a lot.

thanks. Good to know. I'll be sure to bring my reading glasses when I go try on headsets. Something I would have likely neglected to do otherwise.

I’m pretty sure you never focus on anything up close in VR. It’s all “far away”, as someone who is near sighted I absolutely have to use glasses in VR. I suspect but am not certain some far sighted people might not need correction, as something may seem close up but really it’s just “big and far away”.

Try it!

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#49

Post by gpm »

matsemann wrote: post #19

About eye-strain, how is focusing in a VR headset? Is it always a fixed point given it's really just flat screens, or does one have to focus differently when things are "far away".

> how is focusing in a VR headset

From a practical point of view, at least for me, "it just works like normal".

As I understand the biology of it, there are really two different relevant mechanisms for "focus".

The lens that is your eyeball changes shape to focus on things closer/father away in real life. In VR this doesn't happen, there's a fixed focal plane a few meters away. I know this, but I don't notice it at all. Everything is always in focus and my brain doesn't seem to have any trouble dealing with it.

There is also the problem of "vergence", your eyes point at the thing you are looking at, which means they point "closer to eachother" when looking at something close, and in parallel lines when looking at something at infinite distance. VR headsets implement this reasonably well. If you hold a finger a few inches in front of your nose and focus on something a few meters away you should be able to see two copies of your finger (or at least I do, I'm told that other people have to try to see this). This works in VR as well.

As an aside. Trying to play shooters in VR has been surprisingly hard for me because of the vergence issue. I'm not use to aiming a real weapon, and it turns out I have trouble figuring out which near-field image corresponds to the eye I'm trying to aim with while I focus on the target in the distance. I'm not sure if I'd find it easier in real life.

Re: Simula: A VR window manager for Linux

#50

Post by outworlder »

stronglikedan wrote: post #29
matsemann wrote: post #19

About eye-strain, how is focusing in a VR headset? Is it always a fixed point given it's really just flat screens, or does one have to focus differently when things are "far away".

To add to your questions - What about old farts with reading glasses, like me? Do they just work with VR, or are they even needed?

That is for presbyopia, right? Unless it is severe (or combined with other conditions like myopia), you may not even need them. Give it a try!
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