sure we can write 10 page bioethics essays, but when contact tracing is implemented it won't even be an app, governments will access data directly from carriers. and people will be ok because they re scared
Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
41–50 of 55 posts
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is one of the few cases where more privacy might literally save lives, because people will be more inclined to install the app if the privacy is taken more seriously. There was a poll where Germans were asked if they would install a contact tracing app. Some 40% sayed yes outright. Another 40% said "only if privacy concerns are addressed". So you're looking at a potential 40% market penetration without proper pr…
I suspect a large proportion of people would install it if requested to by their government. "Please install this app to save lives. Don't worry, it collects less data on your movements than Google Maps."
"Requested"? It is painfully obvious that this narrative will climax with highly reduced rights - such as freedom of movement; employment; any sort of "assembly" -- for individuals who elect not to use mandatory surveillance products. Pressure to conform will be enormous and applied from top and bottom (from hysterical/concerned bottom dwellers).
This drip drip of 'steps to take' by authorities and media is quite disingenuous: there have been multiple simulations into pandemics in the past 30 years and all these steps have been spelled out in various papers.
Here is one: www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/our-work/events-archive/2001_dark-winter/Dark%20Winter%20Script.pdf
(Grep for "freedom")
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
In this case, even if it only does exactly what it says it does, the data gathered is more valuable than anything else. Complete movement profiles of an entire nation. Can you put a price tsg on that? From that perspective whether it is open source is a secondary consideration.
Everyone generates an anonymous ID, if they come within Bluetooth proximity the devices trade these anonymous IDs. No location data is collected and none of the data is sent over the internet. If you become infected you have the option of broadcasting your ID as being infected and others can compare the infected list against the IDs collected on their phones. None of the data you mentioned is being collected.
Hmm, does that anonymous ID change? If not, it is not going to stay anonymous for very long as patterns will remain largely unchanged. People do tend to be creatures of habit.
I mentioned location data and if there is one thing we have learned over the past decade or so, it is that location is not gathered just from GPS ( which is the argument I assume you were making ).
edit: As for the claim, no data is sent over the internet.. I just plainly do not believe that statement. I do not understand how anyone would.
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#44San Francisco has demonstrated that just asking people to social distance and observe some shelter in place rules works for the most part. Why do we need to implement a surveillance state on top of that?
There is an entire group of people who believe that "something" needs to be done. They do not know what that "something" is, but it has to be done. And the government representatives happily oblige with additional power grab.
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#45San Francisco has demonstrated that just asking people to social distance and observe some shelter in place rules works for the most part. Why do we need to implement a surveillance state on top of that?
... and New Yoerk has shown that such methods aren't always sufficient. Contract tracing and testing clearly have a place. Doing so in a way that maintain civil liberties is clearly important.
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#46Earlier quoted context omitted.
I suspect a large proportion of people would install it if requested to by their government. "Please install this app to save lives. Don't worry, it collects less data on your movements than Google Maps."
"Requested"? It is painfully obvious that this narrative will climax with highly reduced rights - such as freedom of movement; employment; any sort of "assembly" -- for individuals who elect not to use mandatory surveillance products. Pressure to conform will be enormous and applied from top and bottom (from hysterical/concerned bottom dwellers). This drip drip of 'steps to take' by authorities and media is quite dis…
Did you read the article?
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#47San Francisco has demonstrated that just asking people to social distance and observe some shelter in place rules works for the most part. Why do we need to implement a surveillance state on top of that?
> Why do we need to implement a surveillance state on top of that?
Most contact tracing comes up as part re-opening businesses (and schools, though in the US that will probably be in the fall), not as much for the current complete shutdown.
https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/national-corona... has a good explanation of why contact tracing is an important part of re-opening. The gist is that any amount of re-opening is likely to bring R0 much closer to 1 than it is during the current complete shutdown. The question then becomes how (well, how else) to minimize spread when new cases do occur.
Think of contact tracing as one way to replace the impact that’s currently provided by shutting everything down.
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#48Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is one of the few cases where mandatory installation of apps will save lives, as seen in China/SK. For those "40% only if privacy concerns are addressed" there is a gradient of privacy. How many of them will still have concerns no matter what? And how many will not install anything out of laziness/comfort? Meanwhile, Google and Facebook are installed in 90%+ of phones and happily scoop up location data every day…
And that does not mean it is right; it just means it is status quo. And Germans have a good reason to dislike panopticons as some still remember Stasi. Mandatory apps installation.. I guess that could be rolled out as most providers can and do have the ability to install stuff on your phone remotely. That said.. what are the odds average person gets sufficiently annoyed by gvmt mandated apps and installs lineage?
> what are the odds average person gets sufficiently annoyed by gvmt mandated apps and installs lineage?
Won't happen to any meaningful degree. IMO if technologists fail to sensitize public discourse against the emerging dangers of surveillance tech now contemporary western democracies are probably about to be "disrupted".
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#49To those saying "its a real urgent emergency" you might be too young to remember the immediate response after 9/11, but you might be old enough to remember the fall out, Manning, Snowden etc which continues almost twenty years later.
This time around shouldn't we aim for a better response and no fall out that will last decades on our responses?
Re: Corona App – 10 requirements for the evaluation of “Contact Tracing” apps
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
And that does not mean it is right; it just means it is status quo. And Germans have a good reason to dislike panopticons as some still remember Stasi. Mandatory apps installation.. I guess that could be rolled out as most providers can and do have the ability to install stuff on your phone remotely. That said.. what are the odds average person gets sufficiently annoyed by gvmt mandated apps and installs lineage?
> what are the odds average person gets sufficiently annoyed by gvmt mandated apps and installs lineage? Won't happen to any meaningful degree. IMO if technologists fail to sensitize public discourse against the emerging dangers of surveillance tech now contemporary western democracies are probably about to be "disrupted".
I am willing to disagree. If the app becomes annoying ( and it may very be ) people may adapt rather quickly. My example is that of SIM locking in the old country. It was a somewhat technical process, but people quickly adapted to it and learned how to remove it. The perception was that removal of SIM lock was beneficial.
Naturally, I could be wrong ( and has been about cellphones for a while now ). And then, my mom could barely handle switch from Whatsapp to Signal.
edit: coffee didn't kick in yet. added barely before handle