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Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

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Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#41

Post by pjc50 »

kaycebasques wrote: post #35

If there's any one here that's well-versed in USA history and this episode of Cromwell history, can you give me an example of an event in American history that's similarly controversial along the lines of what I'm seeing in this HN discussion? I know that there will be no perfect comparison but I sense that there is some historical event with a similar sort of political charge and ambiguity.

Bit of an odd place to ask .. surely most of American history has politically charged ambiguity to it? The least controversial bits are the two world wars and the War of Independence itself. Everything beyond that is up for grabs, in the colonialism vs. post-colonialism struggle.

The civil war is the main contended issue, right up to the present day. To a much greater extent than it is in the UK outside of the few areas of sectarian Catholic/Protestant fighting (mostly Northern Ireland, Glasgow). Even there the central figure is more likely to be William of Orange (a few decades later) than Cromwell.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#42

Post by laurencerowe »

eternalban wrote: post #40
pjc50 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the point of view of the revolutionaries , who objected to "foreign influence". Regardless of how much the Shah was under American influence or Charles I under Papal influence, the perception that they were was used against them by their enemies. (I have to say that running into a partisan defending the honor of the late Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on the internet is a new experience. I was sort of expecting someone t…

"I have to say that running into a partisan defending the honor of the late Mohammad Reza Pahlavi on the internet is a new experience." Yeh, it's called "propaganda". As you can see, it works. However you have chosen in your oblique reponse to not respond to a simple question: what is your definition of puppet? And how does Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi qualify per that standard? Looking forward to your thoughtful respo…

I imagine being the beneficiary of the 1953 US/UK backed coup would qualify him for puppet status.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#43

Post by fsloth »

rsynnott wrote: post #37
fsloth wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Racist? Toward whom, Irish? I'm sorry, not from the anglosaxon world, I know britain put Ireland under the boot centuries ago, but is calling all of that's effects a form of enslavement deragotary toward Irish?

There's a frequent claim, especially amongst the American far-right, that chattel slavery of Irish people was a common thing (it wasn't, outside isolated cases, generally of non-white Irish people eg https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/an-irish-slave-in-antigua-7... ), and that this somehow shows that slavery isn't a factor in the modern socioeconomic condition of black people in the US (because Irish people in the US h…

Thanks. So it's a term that's taken its own life in US, and is not itself offensive, but labels the user as a member of one faction in the current US culture wars.

Even if one was speaking only about Irish history without any link to US.

Sigh.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#44

Post by rsynnott »

fsloth wrote: post #43
rsynnott wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a frequent claim, especially amongst the American far-right, that chattel slavery of Irish people was a common thing (it wasn't, outside isolated cases, generally of non-white Irish people eg https://medium.com/@Limerick1914/an-irish-slave-in-antigua-7... ), and that this somehow shows that slavery isn't a factor in the modern socioeconomic condition of black people in the US (because Irish people in the US h…

Thanks. So it's a term that's taken its own life in US, and is not itself offensive, but labels the user as a member of one faction in the current US culture wars. Even if one was speaking only about Irish history without any link to US. Sigh.

It's a term that, as far as anyone can see, _originated_ in the US.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#45

Post by fsloth »

rsynnott wrote: post #44
fsloth wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks. So it's a term that's taken its own life in US, and is not itself offensive, but labels the user as a member of one faction in the current US culture wars. Even if one was speaking only about Irish history without any link to US. Sigh.

It's a term that, as far as anyone can see, _originated_ in the US.

Thanks, that clarifies why it's felt to be such an odd thing.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#46

Post by joveian »

pjc50 wrote: post #41
kaycebasques wrote: post #35

If there's any one here that's well-versed in USA history and this episode of Cromwell history, can you give me an example of an event in American history that's similarly controversial along the lines of what I'm seeing in this HN discussion? I know that there will be no perfect comparison but I sense that there is some historical event with a similar sort of political charge and ambiguity.

Bit of an odd place to ask .. surely most of American history has politically charged ambiguity to it? The least controversial bits are the two world wars and the War of Independence itself. Everything beyond that is up for grabs, in the colonialism vs. post-colonialism struggle. The civil war is the main contended issue, right up to the present day. To a much greater extent than it is in the UK outside of the few ar…

I agree most of American history is charged and comparing civil wars makes sense, but I would add that much of the US government interaction with the first nations seems generally comparable as well. The history of Oklahoma, boarding schools, allotment, and the recent pipeline protests are four particular areas (there are many others) that are very charged today.

Looking at it a bit differently, Texas history, where a bunch of ranchers decided on their own to expand the US, could be comparable as well and is still charged today.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#47

Post by [deleted] »

eternalban wrote: post #28
pjc50 wrote: post #8

Cromwell really does have a lingering propaganda support, doesn't he? The UK is one of a very small number of countries to have deliberately restored its monarchy after a revolution and period of parliamentary government, and the reason for that is that Cromwellian government was even worse for a lot of people. A modern analogue might be the Iranian Revolution; congratulations on getting rid of the puppet monarch con…

I must object to your "puppet monarch" comment here. By the standards of 'puppetry' that we can discern from historic documents the Shah of Iran was no more of a puppet than a certain "poodle". Do you always prefix "puppet minister" before say mentioning Tony Blair or any of the post Suez UK PMs? People like you who in the tradition of "lingering propaganda" continue to cast calumny on the late Shah of Iran need to l…

[deleted]

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#48

Post by DubiousPusher »

For a primer on this period take a listen to the now defunct Bing Thinking History Podcast

http://bingethinkinghistory.blogspot.com/?m=1

And the early episodes of Mike Duncan's Revolutions podcast.

https://www.revolutionspodcast.com/

Together these really disabused of the propaganda taught in American schools like that the entire world was under tyranny before the American Republic, that the founders were geniuses that came up with religious toleration, consent of governed and seperation of powers all on their own, etc.

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#49

Post by watersb »

I am just now re-reading Neal Stephenson's "System of the World" or "Baroque Cycle"[0], the first book of which is set in Restoration-Era London.

A fictionalized account, the flavor of which serves to resonate with the feel of dot-Com startup disruption. Which as I write this, my own words sound trite and trivial. Stephenson's work is anything but: Civil War in England, Queen Anne's War in the American Colonies, interminable war in continental Europe... So far, it gives short shrift to England's treatment of Ireland.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Baroque_Cycle

Re: Providence Lost: The Rise and Fall of Cromwell’s Protectorate

#50

Post by handojin »

dev_north_east wrote: post #3

> albeit well over 300 years later, and as further proof that the Irish have perhaps the longest memories in the world. Oh right. At what point do historical figures get a free pass on bringing up their bad doings? And by bad doings, we're talking deaths in the hundreds of thousands, enforced slavery etc.

Fagamid suid mar a ta se
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