ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system • Hacker News Board

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#41

Post by cosmodisk » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:12 AM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #11

flagada wrote: post #3

I don't really understand the whole "urban agriculture" crowd. People do often live in crowded cities, but there's plenty of space to grow stuff on outside of cities. It's the same kind of thinking that gave us the solad roads (which were, predictably, a catastrophic failure).

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

These arguments are often lost shen people believe in something blindly. Tomato grown in Spain and flown to England will end up costing our earth less than the smae tomato grown in England because of additional energy to keep it worm required.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#42

Post by natmaka » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:30 AM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #11

flagada wrote: post #3

I don't really understand the whole "urban agriculture" crowd. People do often live in crowded cities, but there's plenty of space to grow stuff on outside of cities. It's the same kind of thinking that gave us the solad roads (which were, predictably, a catastrophic failure).

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

Source?

AFAIK traditional artificial light sources do indeed dissipate much more energy for the same amount of 'useful light', and also produce so much heat that they cannot be placed near the plant.

Is artificial light mandatory in urban farming? Aren't some (non fiber-optics-based) "light tubes" able to transmit light along with the necessary UV?

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#43

Post by mandelbrotwurst » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:31 AM UTC

philipkglass wrote: post #11

flagada wrote: post #3

I don't really understand the whole "urban agriculture" crowd. People do often live in crowded cities, but there's plenty of space to grow stuff on outside of cities. It's the same kind of thinking that gave us the solad roads (which were, predictably, a catastrophic failure).

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

This is a false choice. Urban agriculture doesn't need to mean indoor agriculture / relying on excessive electricity / complex equipment etc.

Cities can be plenty dense while still having enough space for people to grow potatoes for themselves and their neighbors.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#44

Post by mandelbrotwurst » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

natmaka wrote: post #42

philipkglass wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

Source? AFAIK traditional artificial light sources do indeed dissipate much more energy for the same amount of 'useful light', and also produce so much heat that they cannot be placed near the plant. Is artificial light mandatory in urban farming? Aren't some (non fiber-optics-based) "light tubes" able to transmit light along with the necessary UV?

Nope! You can grow plenty of potatoes with sunlight in a plastic barrel on the balcony of your high-rise apartment.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#45

Post by TACIXAT » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:32 AM UTC

TheSoftwareGuy wrote: post #16

TACIXAT wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appeals to me. Even if the cost was higher, building the capability locally seems very valuable. As well, not all costs are monetary. If the pollution is lower (e.g. from eliminating transportation) it may be worth paying the higher price. Another appeal is knowing exactly what goes into your food.

Most of the pollution from food production comes from actually producing the food. Things like tractors and stuff use a lot of fuel. Furthermore, putting farms in urban buildings means that some urban businesses or residences will ha e to be moved further out, increasing pollution. In reality, this would move the pollution to the urban areas, and not reduce it. Lastly, I can’t think of a reason that you’d know more a…

The point about displacing people and businesses is only true if real estate is in a fixed quantity. When building is a possibility this is not a zero sum game.

Given the (OP) solution, I was imagining having a broccoli wall in my apartment. This would give me a lot more insight into the farming practices as I would be growing it. Also, near zero transportation externalities.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#46

Post by philipkglass » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:35 AM UTC

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #43

philipkglass wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

This is a false choice. Urban agriculture doesn't need to mean indoor agriculture / relying on excessive electricity / complex equipment etc. Cities can be plenty dense while still having enough space for people to grow potatoes for themselves and their neighbors.

You’re right. Urban farming with sunlight is fine. My energy arguments only apply to growing under artificial light.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#47

Post by opportune » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

flagada wrote: post #3

I don't really understand the whole "urban agriculture" crowd. People do often live in crowded cities, but there's plenty of space to grow stuff on outside of cities. It's the same kind of thinking that gave us the solad roads (which were, predictably, a catastrophic failure).

I think I read an article at one point that most "urban agriculture" and indoor farming tools were originally funded with the expectation that they would only be valuable for cannabis production. Because while you could grow tomatoes and lettuce indoors if you wanted to, it's really only economical to produce cannabis. I think that's still true today.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#48

Post by natmaka » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

cosmodisk wrote: post #41

philipkglass wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Urban farming only makes sense for high value, easily perishable produce. Fresh herbs, leafy greens, tomatoes, and other salad ingredients can be produced with higher quality when they are harvested and used on the same day, and when the plants don't have to be bred for shipment-and-storage durability. The real benefit is superior flavor and texture for quality-focused, price-insensitive eaters. Note that this produc…

These arguments are often lost shen people believe in something blindly. Tomato grown in Spain and flown to England will end up costing our earth less than the smae tomato grown in England because of additional energy to keep it worm required.

Isn't cogeneration, or any other type of "waste heat" recovery (for example from datacenters https://www.datacenterknowledge.com/data-centers-that-recycl... ) able to at least able partly solving this?

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#49

Post by natmaka » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 1:49 AM UTC

hogFeast wrote: post #20

flagada wrote: post #3

I don't really understand the whole "urban agriculture" crowd. People do often live in crowded cities, but there's plenty of space to grow stuff on outside of cities. It's the same kind of thinking that gave us the solad roads (which were, predictably, a catastrophic failure).

Look at the Netherlands. They have no land and one of the largest agricultural producers in the world. More efficient, cheaper, better for the environment...the benefits are pretty much endless. It isn't about "urban" but using what we have more efficiently.

In Japan there are also some pertinents operations.

Mirai ( http://miraigroup.jp/en/ ) states some benefits.

Re: ZipGrow: Vertical farming/urban agriculture system

#50

Post by hanniabu » Mon, Mar 30, 2020, 2:13 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #30

elcritch wrote: post #19

I worked for the company that developed the technology. Personally not much of a green-thumb myself, but it's great to see how much you can grow with vertical towers, either in a greenhouse or indoors with LED lights. You can grow about 3-4x what you would get with a flat grow bed for many plants [1]. While the towers are great, the real trick is the grow media as you want it robust enough to survive while not suffoc…

Do you have any idea, why do people concentrate on aquaponics, not aeroponics? Is it just simply easier to implement, or better researched? Or is it actually better (higher yield, closed-loop system, ...)?

A lot more maintenance issues with aeroponics