Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing • Hacker News Board

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#41

Post by samstave » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:31 PM UTC

raynr wrote: post #36

tomcooks wrote: post #12

Can't wait to be tracked by tech developed by a governmental team in the name of safety. Opensource or not a leash is a leash.

"Never let a serious crisis go to waste" - Rahm Emanuel. I agree with this and your sentiment, but I think it is misplaced in this instance. As I understand it, the TraceTogether app collects (and stores locally), information on other users running the TraceTogether app nearby. If our government's contact tracers contact us, we can provide the information, and it can help in contact tracing. This seems to me to be at…

Shoot, I didnt realize that quote was attibuted to Rahm. I fucking hate that guy.

Also - its really disturbing that a few years ago, Apple created an update where you cant turn off wifi or bluetooth - you can now only "pause it"

But there has not been a look into proving that it is actually OFF when your little soft icon is grey...

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#42

Post by Proziam » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

throwanem wrote: post #38

Proziam wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm not sure what to tell you. If the result is (another) permanent loss of privacy and freedom akin to the PATRIOT act, then yes. Technology has immense power to do good for people, but only if those who deploy it do so ethically. How many governments around the world can we honestly predict…

I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. I regret that - assuming my own ongoing case of COVID-19 resolves without fatal complication - I'm quite likely, I think, to have that curiosity satisfied. I regret it because this isn't a cause for change of perspec…

My hope is that people don't lose sight of the long term in spite of the short term suffering we may experience. You can only surrender your rights once, the effects of losing those rights will last forever. How many movements would have been impossible if a local government could spy on everyone to break it up before it even begins? I'm thankful we didn't have the same technology we have now during the civil rights movement, for example.

I sincerely hope for your swift recovery.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#43

Post by mardifoufs » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

lern_too_spel wrote: post #37

tomcooks wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynical for sure, don't know about that "needlessly" given it's an endless fight where everytime you give up a right it's taken away forever. This time they give you the opensource bit, next time it's "a matter of emergency", then they stop asking and just punish you if you don't comply. >Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm n…

> everytime you give up a right it's taken away forever. This is tin foil hat nonsense. The US has implemented martial law before. Those rights weren't taken away forever.

Wasn't the same said after 9/11 and the patriot act? I'd guess it was just a tin foil hat conspiracy to think several three letter agencies would use the provisions from the patriot act to track pretty much all communications? You can't just accuse people of being conspiracy theorists over and over again and tell them that this time would be different because... Reasons? Also, who needs martial law when you can just do the same with duly passed laws?

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#44

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:41 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #41

raynr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Never let a serious crisis go to waste" - Rahm Emanuel. I agree with this and your sentiment, but I think it is misplaced in this instance. As I understand it, the TraceTogether app collects (and stores locally), information on other users running the TraceTogether app nearby. If our government's contact tracers contact us, we can provide the information, and it can help in contact tracing. This seems to me to be at…

Shoot, I didnt realize that quote was attibuted to Rahm. I fucking hate that guy. Also - its really disturbing that a few years ago, Apple created an update where you cant turn off wifi or bluetooth - you can now only "pause it" But there has not been a look into proving that it is actually OFF when your little soft icon is grey...

You can still turn it off by heading to settings and turning it off there (both WiFi and Bluetooth).

It turns the functionality off completely, and stays off until you manually turn it back on.

In control centre it only partially turns off. But that’s not unreasonable as many people don’t understand how many feature rely on Bluetooth. They would probably get annoyed when the stop working, just because they wanted to quickly disconnect some headphones.

Check out the bottom of this page for more: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208086

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#45

Post by samstave » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:45 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #44

samstave wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shoot, I didnt realize that quote was attibuted to Rahm. I fucking hate that guy. Also - its really disturbing that a few years ago, Apple created an update where you cant turn off wifi or bluetooth - you can now only "pause it" But there has not been a look into proving that it is actually OFF when your little soft icon is grey...

You can still turn it off by heading to settings and turning it off there (both WiFi and Bluetooth). It turns the functionality off completely, and stays off until you manually turn it back on. In control centre it only partially turns off. But that’s not unreasonable as many people don’t understand how many feature rely on Bluetooth. They would probably get annoyed when the stop working, just because they wanted to…

I understand that, but I still dont trust it.

I want an app that tells me EVERYTHING that my phones radios are doing. ALL of them, and ALL the data.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#46

Post by avianlyric » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:55 PM UTC

samstave wrote: post #45

avianlyric wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can still turn it off by heading to settings and turning it off there (both WiFi and Bluetooth). It turns the functionality off completely, and stays off until you manually turn it back on. In control centre it only partially turns off. But that’s not unreasonable as many people don’t understand how many feature rely on Bluetooth. They would probably get annoyed when the stop working, just because they wanted to…

I understand that, but I still dont trust it. I want an app that tells me EVERYTHING that my phones radios are doing. ALL of them, and ALL the data.

That’s tricky without building a phone yourself from opensource hardware and software.

At least with Apple, they’re under so much scrutiny you can be fairly confident that if their software was lying it would quickly appear in the news.

Finally the above clearly shows that your assertion you can’t turn off the WiFi or Bluetooth radios is false (assuming the software isn’t outright lying, if think that then you should have said so in your first comment).

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#47

Post by throwanem » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:56 PM UTC

Proziam wrote: post #42

throwanem wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious how many people who now say "give me privacy or give me death!" will change their tune in a hurry once they are themselves, perhaps for the first time in their lives, in real danger of dying. I regret that - assuming my own ongoing case of COVID-19 resolves without fatal complication - I'm quite likely, I think, to have that curiosity satisfied. I regret it because this isn't a cause for change of perspec…

My hope is that people don't lose sight of the long term in spite of the short term suffering we may experience. You can only surrender your rights once, the effects of losing those rights will last forever. How many movements would have been impossible if a local government could spy on everyone to break it up before it even begins? I'm thankful we didn't have the same technology we have now during the civil rights…

Well, that's the thing, isn't it? You can only get sick and die once, but that lasts forever too.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#48

Post by mellow2020 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 5:57 PM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #31

tomcooks wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cynical for sure, don't know about that "needlessly" given it's an endless fight where everytime you give up a right it's taken away forever. This time they give you the opensource bit, next time it's "a matter of emergency", then they stop asking and just punish you if you don't comply. >Would you suggest that we not have public health departments engage in contact tracing at all to combat the pandemic? If so, I'm n…

The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population. It’s not a “copout,” it’s the bread and butter of epidemic mitigation. It’s why most of them don’t get to this point.

> The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population.

But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected.

> It’s why most of them don’t get to this point.

But we are at this point already.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#49

Post by samstave » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

avianlyric wrote: post #46

samstave wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand that, but I still dont trust it. I want an app that tells me EVERYTHING that my phones radios are doing. ALL of them, and ALL the data.

That’s tricky without building a phone yourself from opensource hardware and software. At least with Apple, they’re under so much scrutiny you can be fairly confident that if their software was lying it would quickly appear in the news. Finally the above clearly shows that your assertion you can’t turn off the WiFi or Bluetooth radios is false (assuming the software isn’t outright lying, if think that then you should…

No, I didnt understand that the "OFF" meant different things in the control panel vs the settings panel.

THAT is "apple software lying"

And your point is absurd "If you want a phone you can trust, then you need to build your own phone"

Fuck that logic.

Re: Singapore to Open Source Bluetooth Contact Tracing

#50

Post by Barrin92 » Fri, Mar 27, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

mellow2020 wrote: post #48

closeparen wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population. It’s not a “copout,” it’s the bread and butter of epidemic mitigation. It’s why most of them don’t get to this point.

> The point of contact tracing is to find out who to quarantine, so you don’t have to lock down the entire population. But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected. > It’s why most of them don’t get to this point. But we are at this point already.

>But "stay at home" has been a mantra for weeks anyway, with everybody acting as if they and everyone else is infected.[..] But we are at this point already.

Singapore isn't. (the government that is building this app). Neither is Taiwan. Through a combination of contact tracing, surveillance, national health databases and enforcing compliance of quarantined individuals by for example regularly checking in on them they have been able to both contain the spread of the disease and keep a reasonable amount of economic and social life intact.

I will continue to be mystified by this weird and abstract notion of privacy that keeps others away from my data but results in mass lockdown, quarantines, shutdowns and curfews, while people in Singapore give some data to authorities and they can still go out and live their lives. I want material freedom to buy groceries and go to work, not some sort of religious dogmatic privacy while some plague wreaks havoc and I need to haul up in my apartment for months.