Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#41

Post by GrinningFool » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:30 PM UTC

dustinkirkland wrote: post #19

It's a very reasonable concern. I used to have a Google Assistant in my home office. I've muted the mic and just use it as a Bluetooth speaker. However, the much bigger concern should be your phone, which has a mic, is internet connected, and almost always listening. You need to also disable the Google Assistant, Sciri, etc. there too. Oh, and that doesn't just go for your home. That's in the office, at a client, on…

> Oh, and that doesn't just go for your home.

Once you're out of your home it's hopeless - then you have everybody else's devices to contend with.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#42

Post by tprynn » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

masklinn wrote: post #23

rhino369 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted basis listen, record and send conversations on, that would be very possible, and very harmful for whoever was targeted. Besides the fact that they have better antennas, this is true for pretty much any device with a microphone and a processor with audio processing cap…

> My laptop has a microphone and video. Surely Microsoft could just start recording with the with right windows update? It's a commonly mentioned issue, and a somewhat regular occurrence with various malware or "security solutions". That's why a number of laptops have either visual indicators or shutters (though mostly for the cameras, sadly hot mics are rarely a consideration), and a rare few have physical disconnec…

Macbooks since 2018 physically disable microphones and webcams when the lid is closed: https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-macbook-air-and-2018-m...

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#43

Post by pdkl95 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

Alexa et al are also normalizing "always on microphone that sends audio to a remote business over the internet" technology. According to the bright-line rule from Kyllo v United States[1], when a technology is "in general public use"[2], police no longer need a warrant when they use their own devices based on that technology to see the "details of a private home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion"[3].

[1] https://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/533/27.html

[2] Used throughout the ruling[1], but especially section II of Justice Stevens' dissent.

[3] The ruling[1], 2nd paragraph

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#44

Post by take_a_breath » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #9

take_a_breath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your phone or video conference company is providing the platform that allows you to have the conversation in the first place. Same with your email provider, same with applications running on the cloud. Those are the infrastructure We pay monthly to support business and communication. If my neighbor was listening to my conversations AND running the third largest ad platform on the internet, it would alarm me. These ar…

I think in all cases the service provider has a pretty strong incentive to not violate your trust. You'll cancel your Zoom subscription if they start feeding your meetings to the person that sues. You'll stop buying from Amazon if Alexa starts feeding your meetings to the entity you're engaged in litigation with. In both cases, the incentive exists to keep your confidential meetings confidential. But, incentives are…

Is this really an example of “freaking out”?

==“Perhaps we’re being slightly paranoid but we need to have a lot of trust in these organizations and these devices,” Hancock said. “We’d rather not take those risks.”==

Seems like a pretty reasonable measure and advice. The baseline assumption you make is that you know the who, what, where and when of Amazon sharing data.

Does Amazon actually have an incentive not to violate your trust? You could make the same argument about Facebook and they have routinely violated users trust. It seems the real lesson is that without legal protection for consumers, companies will continue operating in the gray area.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#45

Post by snovv_crash » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:37 PM UTC

pampelondan wrote: post #36

masklinn wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My laptop has a microphone and video. Surely Microsoft could just start recording with the with right windows update? It's a commonly mentioned issue, and a somewhat regular occurrence with various malware or "security solutions". That's why a number of laptops have either visual indicators or shutters (though mostly for the cameras, sadly hot mics are rarely a consideration), and a rare few have physical disconnec…

I saw one gizmo for mic the other day https://shop.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Acce... haven't tried it though, anyone has any experience? Does it really muffle the sound enough?

I think the idea there is that it physically disconnects the mic, since the laptop instead tries to use the headphone mic (which in this case isn't connected). Not sure if it would actually work, it would be easy to 3d-print one to test.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#46

Post by vidarh » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:39 PM UTC

zie wrote: post #7

I have no doubt they are able to hear anything happening in the room they happen to be installed in. But I doubt they listen for anything but their keyword, and I seriously doubt they listen, record and send off to their overlords what they hear on a massive basis. However, they clearly CAN, and while they almost certainly don't on any massive scale, if they by their overlord or a security hack, did on a targeted bas…

They do accidentally trigger very often, though. If you have Alexa devices and check the history, it often records fragments of things that were not intended for it.

If I was to have a very sensitive conversation, I'd unplug them.

But day to day it really does not concern me (or I wouldn't have four of them around the house...)

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#47

Post by vidarh » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:42 PM UTC

MereInterest wrote: post #31

fulafel wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, from a suspicious mindset that could be more or less sincere...

It doesn't even matter how sincere they are. False negatives hurt the perception of the product, because then people need to repeat the key word. False positives do not hurt the perception of the product, because the recording occurs silently. Their incentives are aligned against privacy, and so privacy will suffer.

False positives does hurt the perception, because the device will usually do something or utter a response unless it fails to detect something intelligible or writes the request off as not intended for it (having two devices at opposite ends of a large open space living area can sometimes get frustrating, but looking at the history, you see how often they correctly determine which device should respond)

An occasional false positive is funny, but it gets old pretty quickly.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#48

Post by Touche » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:44 PM UTC

pdkl95 wrote: post #43

Alexa et al are also normalizing "always on microphone that sends audio to a remote business over the internet" technology . According to the bright-line rule from Kyllo v United States [1], when a technology is "in general public use"[2], police no longer need a warrant when they use their own devices based on that technology to see the "details of a private home that would previously have been unknowable without ph…

The thing in your pocket is always listening too.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#49

Post by Foober223 » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

Touche wrote: post #48

pdkl95 wrote: post #43

Alexa et al are also normalizing "always on microphone that sends audio to a remote business over the internet" technology . According to the bright-line rule from Kyllo v United States [1], when a technology is "in general public use"[2], police no longer need a warrant when they use their own devices based on that technology to see the "details of a private home that would previously have been unknowable without ph…

The thing in your pocket is always listening too.

Supposedly your smart phone and smart TV are not passively listening to your offline conversations. That's only done on a targeted basis to people who are being monitored. Your location history however is being passively tracked.

Not defending it, but your smart phone is not quite as bad as Alexa. At least for the moment.

Re: Locked-down lawyers warned Alexa is hearing confidential calls

#50

Post by rebuilder » Sat, Mar 21, 2020, 2:48 PM UTC

snovv_crash wrote: post #45

pampelondan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I saw one gizmo for mic the other day https://shop.googlemerchandisestore.com/Google+Redesign/Acce... haven't tried it though, anyone has any experience? Does it really muffle the sound enough?

I think the idea there is that it physically disconnects the mic, since the laptop instead tries to use the headphone mic (which in this case isn't connected). Not sure if it would actually work, it would be easy to 3d-print one to test.

If you connect a plug to the audio jack, sure, the laptop probably defaults to using that jack for input and output. But you can still choose to use the built-in mic, right? So it's not physically disconnecting anything, just triggering a software disconnect.