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Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

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Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#41

Post by unnouinceput »

optimiz3 wrote: post #34
unnouinceput wrote: post #32

Quote: "By contrast, the cloning attack the Birmingham and KU Leuven researchers developed requires that a thief scan a target key fob with an RFID reader from just an inch or two away." Story time: Back in 2005/2006 when I worked for Siemens Automotive on Immobilizer feature (was involved in Mazda and Ford projects) I got my hands on the highly secret crypto source...and much to my surprise I've seen they implemente…

Hopefully that's in writing somewhere for when the lawsuits happen. Financial consequences tend to motivate large companies to change their ways.

It's not. Was an internal meeting and around 2008 Siemens also sold its entire Automotive division. Also they are the original inventors of Immobilizer feature back in late 80's, and their code "stood" the test of time. You have no idea how much opposition you get to touch even a line of code in Automotive industry when codebase is a decade old, not to mention an entire feature. So I am not surprised this is now all over the place in all auto-makers.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#42

Post by 1123581321 »

gambiting wrote: post #36
1123581321 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am married to someone who has lost her keys several times so far. Upgrading from a car with a $50 fob to one with a $200 fob was not fun.

Key insurance is a thing if this is a legitimate issue for you.

I didn’t know about this. Any idea how typical premiums run? I may have to start the quote process to find that out.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#43

Post by 1123581321 »

webninja wrote: post #7
1123581321 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am married to someone who has lost her keys several times so far. Upgrading from a car with a $50 fob to one with a $200 fob was not fun.

https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/store/tiles/pro If she loses her keys just once it pays for itself many times over.

Yeah, that would have been a good call. Though as noted below, we don’t always know generally where they were lost. I’ll take a look at the peer-to-per discovery.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#44

Post by tialaramex »

unnouinceput wrote: post #32

Quote: "By contrast, the cloning attack the Birmingham and KU Leuven researchers developed requires that a thief scan a target key fob with an RFID reader from just an inch or two away." Story time: Back in 2005/2006 when I worked for Siemens Automotive on Immobilizer feature (was involved in Mazda and Ford projects) I got my hands on the highly secret crypto source...and much to my surprise I've seen they implemente…

Are you sure you aren't misremembering?

DST40 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signature_transponder used in Fords of that period is a Feistel cipher not a Vigenere cipher. Now, I wouldn't choose a Feistel cipher for this problem today but it certainly is not 1.5 centuries obsolete, this type of encryption wasn't even invented until the mid 20th century and a very famous example would be DES.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#45

Post by gambiting »

1123581321 wrote: post #42
gambiting wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Key insurance is a thing if this is a legitimate issue for you.

I didn’t know about this. Any idea how typical premiums run? I may have to start the quote process to find that out.

I had mine for on a 3 year policy for about £100, would cover up to 3 replacements in that time. Made sense as the key was about £400, but I never ended up using it.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#46

Post by Dylan16807 »

slovette wrote: post #15
neuralRiot wrote: post #14

Call me old but what is so great about the smart key? Not having to pull it out of your pocket? I know this is an old rant already but car have reached the crappyfication curve, when something cannot improve its main purpose anymore it starts adding unneeded features to be able to push a “new” product.

I disagree, when you’ve got 4 kids and both arms full of groceries, when the doors open automatically or even unlock on their own it’s a godsend. I’d even say it’s probably saved some lives as the kids race to get in and out of the parking lot instead of waiting on me to shuffle around for the keys, dropping bags in the process, and then chasing each other around in blind traffic.

Isn't the solution to that situation a shopping cart?

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#47

Post by zyztem »

Scoundreller wrote: post #4
zenlot wrote: post #2

And those who steal cars can clone pretty much any car keys. No sensation here.

... except you don't need physical or visual access to clone an electronic key, just proximity. Which is straightforward when you want to steal a particular vehicle because you know where it is and can easily follow its patterns.

And folks with access to Mentor (Advanced Orion) likely can clone keys from other side of the planet

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#48

Post by Dylan16807 »

intopieces wrote: post #38
neuralRiot wrote: post #14

Call me old but what is so great about the smart key? Not having to pull it out of your pocket? I know this is an old rant already but car have reached the crappyfication curve, when something cannot improve its main purpose anymore it starts adding unneeded features to be able to push a “new” product.

Not having the key scratch your smartphone, for one. For another, it just reduces the steps to get you from point A to point B. All these little things add up.

Keys shouldn't be hard enough to scratch phone glass.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#49

Post by code_duck »

jjeaff wrote: post #39
code_duck wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume this person must be losing their keys in public or somewhere unknown. Otherwise their house must have quite the bonanza of keys waiting for them.

Those types of systems like tile work in public as well, they use a network of other users that will inevitably walk by the lost item.

I see, that's interesting and good to know. I thought it was something that only worked in local range.

Re: Hackers Can Clone Millions of Toyota, Hyundai, and Kia Keys

#50

Post by Dylan16807 »

gambiting wrote: post #35
aluminussoma wrote: post #16

My reaction: Great! Reproducing these keys costs hundreds of dollars and a trip to the dealer. Maybe it can finally be affordable again. I'm less concerned about someone stealing my car. The local police department takes it seriously, no less because stolen cars are used to commit other crimes.

Wait, what are you advocating? Return to keys without an immobiliser??? You do realise that that's the feature that has single-handedly destroyed car theft that was so rampant by the 90s? That is what made cars so difficult to steal, but also what makes keys cost what they do and require an approved dealer to code the keys. Return to the old keys where you only had the key and nothing else would be......crazy, really…

Yeah, if they're overcharging then it would probably be better to go after that directly. It doesn't need to cost more than $20.
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