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What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

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Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#41

Post by droithomme »

burkaman wrote: post #13
droithomme wrote: post #4

I got randomly selected for the long one in 2010. There were several questions I was not able to answer but providing incorrect information is a crime and not answering is a crime. So I did nothing. They sent one or two threatening follow ups. Then an in-person enumerator showed up and ran me through the short-form questions only, which was fine.

You might be thinking of 2000, there was no long form in 2010. Could you not answer because you didn't know, or you didn't want to answer those questions?

OK, thanks, I managed to find the form they sent me. It was the Census' American Community Survey, which claims "Your Response is Required by Law". I agree that cooperation with the decennial census is required by law to the extent it collects ages and citizenship status of household individuals, but I do not agree that the Census clause of the Constitution authorizes the collection of the American Community Survey information, which is vastly beyond the scope of Congressional districting needs. The claim that my response is required by law is fallacious and is worthy of being challenged in court.

> Could you not answer because you didn't know, or you didn't want to answer those questions?

Didn't know many. Didn't see how the Census clause authorized the collection of personal and private information they were demanding I turn over accurately under criminal penalty otherwise. Not knowing was sufficient to not be able to respond.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#42

Post by rootusrootus »

rolleiflex wrote: post #35

One thing I’m curious about is, why does a country need to do this in the first place? From the example I’m familiar with: the last ever census in Turkey was held in 2007. There on, there is now a live, real-time count of everyone in the country. Why doesn’t that work in the US? Surely US is capable of it, but I wonder if the blockage is inertial, political or just not enough of a priority.

> Why doesn’t that work in the US?

Because the US does not have border controls between states.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#43

Post by dmurray »

lsiebert wrote: post #26

This is worth quoting here IMHO: "However, even if you don't get fined for not filling out the census form, there are some good reasons you should do it anyway. Seats in the House of Representatives seats are apportioned by population, with the most populous states receiving the most seats. Federal and state governments rely on census data to budget for social welfare programs that assist the poor, elderly, disabled…

Are the apportionments done based on the number of census forms returned, though, or based on the Census Bureau's best estimate of population? Presumably the Bureau have a better guess than that, using an adjustment factor that could be different for each state.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#44

Post by danso »

rolleiflex wrote: post #35

One thing I’m curious about is, why does a country need to do this in the first place? From the example I’m familiar with: the last ever census in Turkey was held in 2007. There on, there is now a live, real-time count of everyone in the country. Why doesn’t that work in the US? Surely US is capable of it, but I wonder if the blockage is inertial, political or just not enough of a priority.

Can you provide any technical detail as to how a real-time count of every person is possible? What databases are used to track births and deaths and emigration in real time? How about income/housing/education characteristics? Are you a Turkish citizen? If so, are you able to query the government for the exact population count right now?

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#45

Post by hurricanetc »

stonogo wrote: post #39
rolleiflex wrote: post #35

One thing I’m curious about is, why does a country need to do this in the first place? From the example I’m familiar with: the last ever census in Turkey was held in 2007. There on, there is now a live, real-time count of everyone in the country. Why doesn’t that work in the US? Surely US is capable of it, but I wonder if the blockage is inertial, political or just not enough of a priority.

"Counting everyone in the country" is one aspect of the census effort. Looking at where they live, what they do for a living, and if they live alone or with others are other aspects. In the US, when someone moves from one state to another, they're not required to notify the US government in any way. Most states have rules about getting your vehicles licensed within a certain time frame after settling in a state, or r…

The idea that the US federal government doesn’t know where people are and who they are talking to is hilarious. We have the biggest spying apparatus in human history.

This is 100% political.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#46

Post by rolleiflex »

danso wrote: post #44
rolleiflex wrote: post #35

One thing I’m curious about is, why does a country need to do this in the first place? From the example I’m familiar with: the last ever census in Turkey was held in 2007. There on, there is now a live, real-time count of everyone in the country. Why doesn’t that work in the US? Surely US is capable of it, but I wonder if the blockage is inertial, political or just not enough of a priority.

Can you provide any technical detail as to how a real-time count of every person is possible? What databases are used to track births and deaths and emigration in real time? How about income/housing/education characteristics? Are you a Turkish citizen? If so, are you able to query the government for the exact population count right now?

The population counts are released yearly and I believe you can do what is the Turkish version of FOIA request to get the live count, though don’t quote me on the latter part.

Turkey has a central database, called TCKN, that everyone is assigned by birth or by getting an immigration visa. The births and deaths are tracked by hospitals and the Revenue Service. Income / education / housing - all of these are tracked by the central registers and licensing boards. Every Turkish citizen and resident has an online account at https://www.turkiye.gov.tr/?lang=en_US (for English version) which you can use to view taxes paid, your previous health records (MRI scans and all should be downloadable) see scripts fillable, paperwork for legal action by you or against you, census records, even mobile and landlines registered on your name, and basically pretty much everything you’d expect a state can do. All of the outputs from this site are printable PDFs and they have a barcode on them which I think the government cryptographic signature. So you can get some doc from here, print it out and bring to someone else and they’d be able to verify it by scanning the barcode.

In other words, they have total knowledge. It’s not just the number of people in the country. What’s interesting is that it doesn’t rely on self-reporting, but on ambient data providers. It’s kind of dystopian, but technically fairly impressive and so far (ominously) relatively benign. Failing all else, it’s very useful.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#47

Post by anadem »

lsiebert wrote: post #26

This is worth quoting here IMHO: "However, even if you don't get fined for not filling out the census form, there are some good reasons you should do it anyway. Seats in the House of Representatives seats are apportioned by population, with the most populous states receiving the most seats. Federal and state governments rely on census data to budget for social welfare programs that assist the poor, elderly, disabled…

> not filling out the census form may cost you something in the long run.

On the average each uncounted person loses their district $2,000 per year in federal payments (i.e. tax money returning to the district). Losing $20,000 over the ten years between censuses is a big deal for school and other program funding.

PLEASE BE COUNTED!

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#49

Post by ajross »

dmurray wrote: post #43
lsiebert wrote: post #26

This is worth quoting here IMHO: "However, even if you don't get fined for not filling out the census form, there are some good reasons you should do it anyway. Seats in the House of Representatives seats are apportioned by population, with the most populous states receiving the most seats. Federal and state governments rely on census data to budget for social welfare programs that assist the poor, elderly, disabled…

Are the apportionments done based on the number of census forms returned, though, or based on the Census Bureau's best estimate of population? Presumably the Bureau have a better guess than that, using an adjustment factor that could be different for each state.

Apportionment is based on direct census count only. Indeed there is better science available for population estimation (and IIRC some of it indeed gets done by the Census Bureau's reporting), but that's not how the law was written.

Re: What happens if I don't fill out my census form? (2019)

#50

Post by karatestomp »

rolleiflex wrote: post #35

One thing I’m curious about is, why does a country need to do this in the first place? From the example I’m familiar with: the last ever census in Turkey was held in 2007. There on, there is now a live, real-time count of everyone in the country. Why doesn’t that work in the US? Surely US is capable of it, but I wonder if the blockage is inertial, political or just not enough of a priority.

The short and slightly oversimplified answer is that one level or another of our government has all the same info on us most other countries do—if they don't, they can sure as hell ask any of several companies for it—but various interest groups demand, for a few different reasons, that they pretend like they don't, mostly in the name of some notion of freedom or advocacy of same (for the latter, see: making income taxes annoying for hundreds of millions of people only because some folks want them to be annoying)
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