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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#41

Post by tgv »

tsimionescu wrote: post #27
koolba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of blanket statement is a great example of theory vs. practice. In theory you’d want everything to be public in the interest of informing your populace. In practice that’s nonsense. There’s genuine national security concerns, forthright debate of alternatives by advisors, and discussions of limits on negotiating positions. Earring on the side of transparency is a good idea but there’s a whole lot in governm…

How can the public take informed decisions if the reasoned debate is always assumed to be held in secret? OK, national security and foreign negotiation is a special topic where secrecy can be warranted. But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument?

How can politicians take responsible measures if they can be called out on any nonsensical thing?

Not that I'm against transparency, but there really are two sides to this. In the best case, politicians act in the interest of the people, which makes publication of their private dealings unwanted. In the worst case, they act against the interest of the people, which can only be dealt with by complete openness and independent justice. In practice, there's a balance between the two.

And it's worse if the decision makers are judged by people that are only partially affected, such as in EU decisions.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#42

Post by leto_ii »

koolba wrote: post #11
phlipski wrote: post #8

Sunlight is the best disinfectant. All citizens deserve to know what their politicians are saying behind closed doors.

That type of blanket statement is a great example of theory vs. practice. In theory you’d want everything to be public in the interest of informing your populace. In practice that’s nonsense. There’s genuine national security concerns, forthright debate of alternatives by advisors, and discussions of limits on negotiating positions. Earring on the side of transparency is a good idea but there’s a whole lot in governm…

I really don't think in this case there would be any national security issues.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#43

Post by frandroid »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy. I don't think it's unfair to now reveal the contents of these discussions. It's high time to see if it was corruption, or compromise, which happened.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#44

Post by rossdavidh »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

Given the power that these people wield, and the frequency with which they misuse it, while I agree there could be downsides, I absolutely think the benefits outweigh the risks. I don't even think it's a particularly close call.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#45

Post by leto_ii »

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public.

We're not talking about private individuals discussing private matters informally here.

These are people with great power arguing over the fate of millions.

They shouldn't be saying things that they wouldn't want exposed and there is no reason to keep this secret.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#46

Post by koolba »

tsimionescu wrote: post #27
koolba wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of blanket statement is a great example of theory vs. practice. In theory you’d want everything to be public in the interest of informing your populace. In practice that’s nonsense. There’s genuine national security concerns, forthright debate of alternatives by advisors, and discussions of limits on negotiating positions. Earring on the side of transparency is a good idea but there’s a whole lot in governm…

How can the public take informed decisions if the reasoned debate is always assumed to be held in secret? OK, national security and foreign negotiation is a special topic where secrecy can be warranted. But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument?

> But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument?

Deliberations are not arguments. Arguments are delivered after deliberation is complete.

If you consider a group of advisors acting as an extension of the chief executive, it’s no different than asking for the chief executives private thoughts which is ludicrous.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#47

Post by DrScientist »

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

What if people are presenting a public image that is at odds which what actually happened?

Is it then legitimate to call them out?

Remember these weren't 'at the bar talking rubbish' kind of conversations, these were extremely serious negotiations in a professional capacity where you would expect people to weigh words carefully.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#48

Post by tsimionescu »

tgv wrote: post #41
tsimionescu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the public take informed decisions if the reasoned debate is always assumed to be held in secret? OK, national security and foreign negotiation is a special topic where secrecy can be warranted. But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument?

How can politicians take responsible measures if they can be called out on any nonsensical thing? Not that I'm against transparency, but there really are two sides to this. In the best case, politicians act in the interest of the people, which makes publication of their private dealings unwanted. In the worst case, they act against the interest of the people, which can only be dealt with by complete openness and inde…

I disagree completely.

If there were real transparency, the public can also, in time, grow together with their politicians, and understand why certain decisions must be taken, and can help the public take a more active and measured role in their own government.

Controlling the actions of politicians who explicitly act against the public interest is at best a minor win. Open and honest dialog is the much more important aspect of this.

And the best case of this is - a politician working for the public interest convinces people to be mindful of their long term goals even when it contradicts their short term goals.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#49

Post by Ygg2 »

alexsideris wrote: post #15
tasubotadas wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happened? It's a success story. I get that people do not like the fact that they can't retire now at 55yo or that they had to privatize a few big national companies, but I think it's a perfect example where the doctor knows better than the patient what's best for them.

> It's a success story. Haha! That was a good one.

Hey man, it was a success story. For Germany. First their banks are salvaged. Then they get infusion of cheap Greek labor.

It's a win-win.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#50

Post by kome »

leto_ii wrote: post #45
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. We're not talking about private individuals discussing private matters informally here. These are people with great power arguing over the fate of millions. They shouldn't be saying things that they wouldn't want exposed and there is no reason to keep this secret.

very good points.
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