The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer • Hacker News Board

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#41

Post by t0astbread » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:10 PM UTC

Bnshsysjab wrote: post #24

t0astbread wrote: post #18

It doesn't matter whether 10x programmers exist. Programming is not a sport and as such, competition will only lead to narrow thinking, useless optimization and hatred. What we should really strive for is making programming a more creative activity where people learn from and inspire each other, not a competition. Oh and also, "finding the 10x engineer" feels like a hotspot to inject hidden bias into recruiting.

True, but if you culled the bottom 30-50% of programmers, how much productivity have you lost?

Probably a lot because now a lot of programmers up to maybe the top 10% or 20% are worried they're not good enough which will lead to a lot of stress and in turn, less productivity.

Aside from that, if all of programming is competitive it will keep a lot potentially very capable people from entering the field because not everyone (regardless of ability) is made for competition.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#42

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:12 PM UTC

Here is your 10x programmer:

https://norvig.com/sudoku.html

"In this essay I tackle the problem of solving every Sudoku puzzle. It turns out to be quite easy (about one page of code for the main idea and two pages for embellishments) using two ideas: constraint propagation and search."

If you gave this task to an "average" developer, how long would it take for them to implement? How many lines of code would it be? Would the implementation be correct? How long would their code take to execute?

    % python sudo.py
    All tests pass.
    Solved 50 of 50 easy puzzles (avg 0.01 secs (86 Hz), max 0.03 secs).
    Solved 95 of 95 hard puzzles (avg 0.04 secs (24 Hz), max 0.18 secs).
    Solved 11 of 11 hardest puzzles (avg 0.01 secs (71 Hz), max 0.02 secs).
    Solved 99 of 99 random puzzles (avg 0.01 secs (85 Hz), max 0.02 secs).

Does the average developer know what "constraint propagation" and "search" mean in the above sense, or remember enough about them from their CS class to recognize them as the right tools and how to implement them?

Also, can the average developer implement a spell checker from scratch on a single transcontinental flight?

https://norvig.com/spell-correct.html

So Norvig is always the paradigmatic example of the 10x developer, for me. Having a broad range of CS techniques at your disposal and knowing how and when to deploy them, is almost a super power.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#43

Post by odyssey7 » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

CognitiveLens wrote: post #31

It's worth pointing out that the research found a 10x _spread_ between the least-productive and most-productive engineers - a '10xer' isn't someone who does ten times more than the average, so it becomes less mythical if you think about someone who does, e.g. 2x more than average in an organization with a few burned out engineers doing 20% of the average.

Ah, so the secret to having a bunch of 5x engineers is to not burn them out.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#44

Post by skybrian » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:14 PM UTC

nybblesio wrote: post #28

The OP's example is perfect: he didn't go to the leaf-nodes and write each test by hand . Instead, it was clear that writing a tool to do the job would be better. Software is all about leverage. This is what defines a 10x programmer. However, I'm constantly amazed how many programmers fail to see the forest for the trees. To a large extent, not seeing (or seeing and ignoring) this type of solution is learned behavior…

It seems like you're almost debating yourself here, making arguments for opposite sides. If anyone could do it and environmental effects make all the difference, why emphasize individual initiative?

But maybe the best thing to do would be to find a better environment, if you can?

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#45

Post by shepardrtc » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:16 PM UTC

gilbetron wrote: post #10

The concept of the 10x programmer seems to have been drifted from its original meaning. It isn't that there's a coder that is 10x better than a good coder. It is that a lot of people are really bad at their jobs, and a coder that thinks and learns about problems can be far better than those people. It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to dev…

> It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to developer simple routines

They still very much exist. My previous job was at a bank and these people filled it.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#46

Post by tekkk » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:18 PM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #25

gilbetron wrote: post #10

The concept of the 10x programmer seems to have been drifted from its original meaning. It isn't that there's a coder that is 10x better than a good coder. It is that a lot of people are really bad at their jobs, and a coder that thinks and learns about problems can be far better than those people. It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to dev…

Agreed. I've never encountered someone that I think is genuinely a 10x programmer. I've worked with a few people that thought I was one, which I'm most certainly not, and I've explained that to them. I've encountered a lot of what I would call .2x programmers though. As you've said, there are a lot of people that are really bad at the job. It's not a slight either - there are a lot of people doing this job that reall…

I myself have noticed that some people just have natural cognitive abilities that far surpass any regular person's abilities, and I guess that's generally a prerequisite for making any new ground-breaking discoveries or libraries. But still, one person can only know/do as much as one person can, and while having very great skills in some narrow domain, other people (or here programmers) might be better versed in other skills than this "10x" person. Thus the 10x depends very much on the task.

What I have come to appreciate more over the years is the ability to communicate and make understandable code that other people can build upon. I think it's our greatest strength to lean on the collective ability of the group instead of depending on some person's individual skill.

And in the end the "10x" is merely a subjective measure, that very much depends upon the people you are comparing to. With a team of 10x programmers wouldn't everyone be then only 1x?

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#47

Post by RealityVoid » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:20 PM UTC

BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 wrote: post #33

I remember one programmer that I characterised with "He writes a lot of code". I ended up with one of his not small routines that I replaced with a one page assembler routine in MVS NIP rather than OPEN. When reworking printing software to support multi color, I researched a commonly used subroutine though several layers of calls and replaced it with, yes, a single character constant. I lost count of the many legacy…

I do not think 10x means "churns out code" but rather "produces results". And by this metric, by golly, there are a couple 10x out there for sure.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#48

Post by api » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:21 PM UTC

gilbetron wrote: post #10

The concept of the 10x programmer seems to have been drifted from its original meaning. It isn't that there's a coder that is 10x better than a good coder. It is that a lot of people are really bad at their jobs, and a coder that thinks and learns about problems can be far better than those people. It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to dev…

> It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s

These definitely still exist.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#49

Post by petilon » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

10x programmers do exist. But here's the thing: its not worth being a 10x programmer. Managers don't necessarily want them.

First of all, if you complete a project 10x faster than the expected time, managers will assume that they had overestimated the project, as opposed to recognizing that you're a 10x programmer. I have seen this time after time after time.

Secondly, if a manager does recognize that you're a 10x programmer then you will be seen as a risk: what happens if you leave the company? If the product was built by a team then that's a legit business. If the product was built by just 1 person then that's not a legit business as the business can suddenly collapse if that 1 person leaves.

Third, you make your co-workers look bad by raising the expectations bar. You will not win any popularity contests. You may make your manager look bad too, if your performance diminishes the value of the manager.

If you're indeed a highly capable programmer here's my advice: don't be a 10x programmer by doing 10x the quantity of work or completing projects in 1/10th the time. Instead be a 1.1x programmer, then expend your remaining energy helping your teammates grow, and broadening your influence. (So scale yourself horizontally instead of vertically.) This advice is often not easy to heed if you're introverted, and if you're extroverted you are already a manager instead of a programmer.

Re: The Myth of the Myth of the 10x Programmer

#50

Post by WJW » Mon, Feb 17, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

shepardrtc wrote: post #45

gilbetron wrote: post #10

The concept of the 10x programmer seems to have been drifted from its original meaning. It isn't that there's a coder that is 10x better than a good coder. It is that a lot of people are really bad at their jobs, and a coder that thinks and learns about problems can be far better than those people. It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to dev…

> It comes from terrible "corporate drone" software developers in the 80s and 90s - the ones that would takes weeks to developer simple routines They still very much exist. My previous job was at a bank and these people filled it.

Can confirm. Last week a PM was gushing to me it "only" took a week to implement a feature that was not much more than an extra if statement. This is not in a regulated industry either, just run of the mill web stuff.