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Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

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Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#41

Post by orpheansodality »

perl4ever wrote: post #34
patorjk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Northrop Grumman a decade ago on a contract that was missing it's deadlines. It was pretty choatic, and management was not very good (every new thing became a #1 priority). To try to get things done we were allowed to work as much overtime as possible. They even had white board showing who had worked the most hours (the top several people people worked over 2000 extra hours during a 12 month period). I al…

I briefly worked for a large federal contractor, far away from stuff like aerospace per se,* but I got the distinct impression that all the dysfunction and waste was inherent in the lack of communication between the government and the employees of the contractor. All around me were normal people trying to do a good job, but a lot of people seemed to be employed to prevent information from getting back and forth to th…

Sounds like a perfect example of an immoral maze: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/zpA2Tnp2k38qSmr8J/how-to-ide...

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#42

Post by markdown »

tectonic wrote: post #2

From today’s Orbital Index ( https://orbitalindex.com/archive/2020-01-30-Issue-49/ ): The Best Way to Make a Profit as an Aerospace Company is to Fail ( https://qz.com/1784335/the-space-military-industrial-complex... ), a compelling piece about how massive corporations like Northrop Grumman have little incentive to hit their contract budgets and are arguably incentivized not to. “Northrop Grumman […] won the James We…

Always annoys me when talking about foreign aid to "3rd world" countries that you'll have people get on a high horse about 3rd world govts being so corrupt that money just ends up in the hands of cronies and the well-connected.

The reality is any such corruption is dwarfed by the corruption that goes on in the award of US govt contracts.

This is all an inevitable consequence of the US being one of the few countries on earth were bribery (by another name) is legal. So long as these corporations keep bribing the politicians, their contracts will continue to get extended.

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#43

Post by chii »

perl4ever wrote: post #34
patorjk wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worked at Northrop Grumman a decade ago on a contract that was missing it's deadlines. It was pretty choatic, and management was not very good (every new thing became a #1 priority). To try to get things done we were allowed to work as much overtime as possible. They even had white board showing who had worked the most hours (the top several people people worked over 2000 extra hours during a 12 month period). I al…

I briefly worked for a large federal contractor, far away from stuff like aerospace per se,* but I got the distinct impression that all the dysfunction and waste was inherent in the lack of communication between the government and the employees of the contractor. All around me were normal people trying to do a good job, but a lot of people seemed to be employed to prevent information from getting back and forth to th…

> a lot of people seemed to be employed to prevent information from getting back and forth to the customer.

that's because it's their job to _convey_ this information. But of course, their conveying is slow and/or wrong, whether by intention or by incompetence.

Also, if the customer and the sub/contractor were in direct communication, then these middle managers and project coordinators will no longer be needed! That threatens their job security!

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#44

Post by chii »

perl4ever wrote: post #35
spamizbad wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There used to be a lot more defense contractors during the cold war. Also, more accountability. So there was competitive pressure to be seen as an organization that could reliably deliver projects. Over the years, many of the major companies merged, then shifted strategies to geographically dispersing their jobs to bolster congressional support. Take the Joint Strike Fighter / F-35 for example: 4 bids. Lockheed won t…

What I find humorous is a few years ago I observed apparently the federal government wanted to outsource some legal services and document management, and they went with one of these airplane makers (I forget which one). Who do you think of when you think of paperwork? The aerospace industry!

"Most of our paper work is already for dealing with these contracting firms! Might as well outsource the paper work completely to them!"

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#45

Post by ceejayoz »

pavon wrote: post #29
fgonzag wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm starting to believe it'd be cheaper to just start out the same project with 2 or 3 companies, and then just keep the be st performing one and dump the other two as soon as its clear that one will be finishing the project in time and within budget. That would only double the cost (if you dump early enough) of a govt project, and since most projects seem to have a budget overrun much larger than that, it'd actually…

That is exactly what NASA did for Commercial Crew. The started out awarding 5 contracts, then at each stage down-selected to 4,3, and finally 2 suppliers, Boeing and SpaceX. Also commercial crew contracts are fixed-price, pay-for-performance, not the standard cost-plus contracts. So Boeing won't get a dollar to repeat this test; they have to pay for it out of their own pocket.

> Also commercial crew contracts are fixed-price, pay-for-performance, not the standard cost-plus contracts. So Boeing won't get a dollar to repeat this test; they have to pay for it out of their own pocket.

LOL. Boeing knows how to handle minor obstacles like that.

https://spacenews.com/nasa-inspector-general-criticizes-addi...

"NASA paid Boeing nearly $300 million more than originally planned in its commercial crew contract in part because of agency concerns that the company might drop out of the program, a new report claims."

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#46

Post by KiwiJohnno »

jessriedel wrote: post #18
aj7 wrote: post #7

Why do we even have this program?

Commercial crew program is going to be a way, way cheaper method of putting astronauts in low-Earth orbit than the Space Shuttle. And most of the capabilities that the Shuttle had but Starliner/Dragon lack are either obsolete or are being handled more efficiently by the dedicated X-37 spacecraft.

But interestingly, Boeing has manged to increase the fees from this program to the point that they will charge NASA a higher cost per seat than the Russians do: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/nasa-report-finds-bo...

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#48

Post by jessriedel »

KiwiJohnno wrote: post #46
jessriedel wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commercial crew program is going to be a way, way cheaper method of putting astronauts in low-Earth orbit than the Space Shuttle. And most of the capabilities that the Shuttle had but Starliner/Dragon lack are either obsolete or are being handled more efficiently by the dedicated X-37 spacecraft.

But interestingly, Boeing has manged to increase the fees from this program to the point that they will charge NASA a higher cost per seat than the Russians do: https://arstechnica.com/science/2019/11/nasa-report-finds-bo...

These comparisons are usually bogus because they don't account for Purchasing Power Parity. Almost all product, and labor, are cheaper in Russia.

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#49

Post by sebazzz »

jessriedel wrote: post #18
aj7 wrote: post #7

Why do we even have this program?

Commercial crew program is going to be a way, way cheaper method of putting astronauts in low-Earth orbit than the Space Shuttle. And most of the capabilities that the Shuttle had but Starliner/Dragon lack are either obsolete or are being handled more efficiently by the dedicated X-37 spacecraft.

If you take the dollar per weight price the Space Shuttle wasn't that expensive, right? Assuming a full cargo bay. Source: everyday astronaut.

I don't understand why (as far a I know) the weak points of the space shuttle weren't addressed, like the heat tiles which were supposedly fragile. Instead, they aborted the entire program.

Re: Boeing reports a $410M charge in case NASA decides Starliner needs another test

#50

Post by kapnobatairza »

VT_Dude wrote: post #31

Boeing just posted it's first full-year loss since 1997. If you have to tell your investors bad-news, better to throw in all of the potential bad news that you were on the fence about than to have to make follow-up announcements. (Honey I totaled the car, and the other car may be out of gas, and all our toilets might be backed up.) https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/boeing-posts-annua...

Correct - See "big bath" accounting.
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