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I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

blog.carolynworks.com

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Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#41

Post by jonafato »

lsc wrote: post #35
jonafato wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't this go against the 10,000 hours thing? Sure, taking someone who is smarter and has more experience than other students and putting them in front of a computer will yield these results. However, someone who is solely smarter and does not normally program will not likely produce good code. Expertise is much more about practice than raw ability. Most of the really good programmers out there are really good beca…

Have you ever worked with someone who is more than one standard deviation smarter than you are? I highly recommend the experience. I have watched people go from novice to better than I am in just a few years, and I have rather a lot more than 10,000 hours in my field. Hell, I have at least that much in my sub-specialization. Mentoring people, especially if you can mentor people who end up learning faster than you did…

I absolutely agree with you. This wasn't my point though. My point was that Person A's 10,000 hours is worth more than Person B's intelligence advantage, not that Person B will not overcome Person A.

You only learn from encountering situations in which learning is necessary. I think the smarter person encounters these learning experiences more quickly, but people don't instantly become great at something.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#42

Post by roel_v »

wyclif wrote: post #34
roel_v wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't, there are plenty of people working hours late that and slugging through it. And it's true that 80 hour weeks don't 'necessarily' lead to excellence; actually it's quite obvious. However, there aren't many people who do achieve excellence without extreme dedication. So working 80 hours will add to the results you will achieve. It's not for everyone, fine. Not everybody can be top 1%. By definition, 99% ca…

Where did I "pretend that we're all equal and everybody is the best?" Please don't set up a straw man. And my argument was not that there aren't "plenty" of people working those kinds of hours. I am simply not convinced that working 80 per week = excellence. You're equating hours put in with working harder and smarter. If someone plays the drums for 80 hours a week but has no natural sense of rhythm, they'll never ex…

"Where did I "pretend that we're all equal and everybody is the best?""

You didn't, that was a generalization, an additional message or thought, on top of the reply to your post which was in the 1st paragraph.

"And my argument was not that there aren't "plenty" of people working those kinds of hours"

You said that it was a "sure recipe for burnout", implying (more than that, 'positing' even) that everybody who works those hours will at some point burn out. I disagree. Some will burn out, some (I'd even say the majority but have no numbers to back that up) won't.

"I am simply not convinced that working 80 per week = excellence."

Right, neither am I; actually I'm convinced of the opposite, that 80 hours/week != automatically excellence. I said so, in those words, in my post.

"You're equating hours put in with working harder and smarter."

I explicitly did no such thing. Putting in many hours is just part of it, in addition to working harder and smarter. If somebody wants to excel as a drummer, they'll have to have rhythm, study hard, and practice a lot. Just the first two won't cut it, because there will be somebody out there who will do anything it takes to be the best. When there is a large group of people competing, you cannot let anything slack if you want to be the best, because others will do what you won't. (not you personally, of course, I mean 'someone who wants to be the best).

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#43

Post by aforty »

In college I never once doubted myself. My father was one of the first people to graduate with a computer science degree. I grew up around computers and I knew from a very young age that that was the path I was going to follow. It wasn't until very recently, a few years after graduation, that I started doubting myself. Is this really the profession for me? I coasted through all my computer science courses but I had some important interviews go wrong and I felt inadequate. I wondered if this is what I wanted after all because I couldn't answer interview questions from Amazon and others. It's not a woman issue, it's just an issue and there is a solution... someone tell me what it is.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#44

Post by roel_v »

paganel wrote: post #33
roel_v wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'value' to who? You yourself and your direct environment, presumably. How much did your other interests contribute to your software skills? Maybe a bit, but not as much as other skills would have that you could (with directed effort) have learned in the time you spend on other things. I'm not saying it's wrong, I too live my life for myself, not for others, and not to be the very best developer I could potentially be…

> Socializing, a family, learning macrame - all of those things do not add to being the ultimate hacker. When you build stuff for the outside world to use (software, architecture etc.) then knowledge of the "outside world" is of extreme importance. You being the "ultimate hacker" or the greatest architect since Phidias has no importance whatsoever.

I agree. But your point is not at odds with my point. Just taking a macrame class to 'learn about the outside world' is not the most efficient use of time. What I meant was (it was implied my 'with directed effort' sideline) that there are ways to learn about what you need to build from specific focus on those things. You don't have to have family picnics each Sunday to learn how to best design something for 'the outside world'. When you recognize you need to know something for the audience you're building for, you can study that specifically, you don't need the rest.

Of course it's much nicer to go on Sunday picnics and solve cognitive dissonance between 'I want a personal life' and 'I want to be the best at XYZ' by rationalizing it as 'oh but these non-specific activities will make me a more well-rounded person, which will make me better at 'XYZ'. In itself that's OK, humans need such rationalizations otherwise we'd go crazy in no time. BUT, just because we use those rationalizations, that doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize them as such.

So, after this detour ;), my point is: having a family, socializing etc. are not necessary to know what you need to know about the outside world to be the best at anything.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#45

Post by robgough »

The vast majority of people I've met who code professionally DO NOT do any code outside of office hours? (excepting for the occasional overtime).

I think those that code in their own hours, and read the blogs etc. to keep themselves up to date are the minority not the majority.

I would also have to concur that I don't think this is gender related.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#46

Post by mkr-hn »

hardy263 wrote: post #7
SamReidHughes wrote: post #3

In programming most of the variance in ability is explained by intelligence and not effort. You can take, for example, some non-CS student, teach them programming by saying "look, here's how you do it", and if they're the right student, they'll instantly be better than 90% of CS students. (And if they're not, they won't be. Oh well.) A lot of nerdlingtons who "know" programming and argue about Java going into their f…

I doubt they'll "instantly" be better than 90% of CS students, but if they're interested, they'll ultimately put in more time by themselves to learn how to program. I remember that I was learning to program just as I was entering high school. I fell in love with programming instantly, but it does not mean I didn't spend hours upon hours debugging my first few programs to see what went wrong. But I didn't have anyone…

"After taking my first computer science course in high school, my classmates thought of me as a programming genius (which I am not) since I was able to write programs faster than anybody else in my class. It's a lot easier to understand OOP when you've been programming for 1-2 years rather than 2-3 months."

---

I think this happens with most classes. I had to take an introductory MS Office class as part of my degree. I aced every test without effort, and was the go-to guy for help when even the teacher was stumped.

It wasn't that I was some kind of genius, it was that I had been working with various interfaces and software from the moment I could reach a keyboard.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#47

Post by samatman »

heresy wrote: post #30
strlen wrote: post #27

As jerf has pointed out, this is Impostor Syndrome. It is present in men as well. Ironically, the better programmer I've become, the stronger it has gotten. The thing is, while scary, it's perfectly normal. The only advise I can offer is just to ignore it. So what if it is true and you "don't belong" or you're a bad programmer: so what? It's still something that you enjoy and can make a career, a rare luxury for most…

So what would you recommend someone self-taught who just bombed his past couple of interviews do? Nothing like failing on elementary math questions to make you feel like a class A idiot, especially if your title is 'Senior Software Engineer', and here I go, bombing on freaking word problems in a numeracy test. I feel like a total fraud, like I'm in the wrong field, I could have done those easily straight out of high…

The Khan Academy. Everything that fits under the term 'numeracy' is comprehensively covered there. Go ye and watch.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#48

Post by kpreid »

ramchip wrote: post #32
hardy263 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt they'll "instantly" be better than 90% of CS students, but if they're interested, they'll ultimately put in more time by themselves to learn how to program. I remember that I was learning to program just as I was entering high school. I fell in love with programming instantly, but it does not mean I didn't spend hours upon hours debugging my first few programs to see what went wrong. But I didn't have anyone…

> all my programs were imperative styled, not OOP Nitpicking here, but I'm quite sure OOP and imperative programming are orthogonal concepts. Clojure is a mostly functional OO language, while Java is a mostly imperative OO language.

Yes. On the other hand, 'procedural' can be seen as opposed to OO: the notion that the organization of programs is as a collection of procedures (and (incidentally?) data structures), as in C, as opposed to a collection of object types.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#49

Post by tarmstrong »

jerf wrote: post #9

Think about how many students were in your freshman level courses. Now think about how many students are in your senior level courses. Add a fudge factor for the larger dispersion in senior level courses if you like, but don't forget seniors are also taking more of the courses per semester as well. The size difference is basically the number of people who dropped out. A few may have dropped college altogether but man…

I see two problems here: one, Carolyn is calling this a gender issue and not doing a good job of explaining why it is; and two, any time 'gender' is mentioned on Hacker News, twenty people defensively write comments dismissing the gender issue.

This might be more of a gender issue than we realize. CS is just plain unwelcoming, no matter who you are, but there are fewer women in CS. We are turning women away somehow, and it's probably in ways more subtle than we realize.

Any time someone complains about CS being unpleasant, we should take a hard look and wonder if it's more unpleasant to women for that reason. There's no point in trying to end or simplify the gender conversation, even if we were brought into it sloppily.

Re: I know I belong in computer science, but sometimes I wonder.

#50

Post by grammaton »

I think the author is making a series of hasty generalizations. In my experience a really good developer is more likely to have interesting or eclectic interests outside of, and far removed from, programming. Development is a mentally demanding task, and those who aren't able to find a way to unplug and recharge - usually with something worthwhile and enjoyable out in the real world - don't last for very long.
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