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Education and Men without Work

nationalaffairs.com

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Re: Education and Men without Work

#41

Post by Miner49er »

rpiguy wrote: post #32
duxup wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day Is that actually the case? The article takes issue with the narrative that supply and demand are involved ... but I don't think this article proves this idea that folks are enjoying government benefits and that results in them not working. The article certainly mentions it, but is pretty short on evide…

Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore, 1/2 of the men take prescription pain medication daily. The government benefits certainly make it easier to not work, but the article does pain to say that correlation is not causation - it is a multi-factor phenomenon. Government benefits may enable the behav…

Could be the difference in pay for low wage jobs. It seems that this is what it comes down to.

Many male, high-school dropouts have decided it's a better deal to just coast by on disability and money from friends/family then to work for $10/hour at McDonald's or similar.

The way to bring them back into the workforce, IMO, is to offer them a better deal. If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern Europe, maybe more men would take them.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#42

Post by tmux314 »

There's a very weird "let them eat cake" attitude in this thread which I find distressing. The study reports on the millions of working age men in the US who are essentially too depressed and face too many obstacles to search for work. Instead, they're spending their days staying inside, getting high, and playing video games. They essentially have little to no chance to pursue romantic relationships. Many of them eventually take their own lives.

Perhaps some are enjoying their "hedonistic" lifestyles, but likely most have totally given up on life, much like the Japanese hikikomori. It's not healthy mentally or physically. But it seems like as long as people treat these men as "losers" who deserve their fate, the more this problem will grow.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#43

Post by rpiguy »

Miner49er wrote: post #41
rpiguy wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Disability is a federal benefit (not state) and according to the article a whopping 2/3 of these men are on at least 1 federal disability benefit. Furthermore, 1/2 of the men take prescription pain medication daily. The government benefits certainly make it easier to not work, but the article does pain to say that correlation is not causation - it is a multi-factor phenomenon. Government benefits may enable the behav…

Could be the difference in pay for low wage jobs. It seems that this is what it comes down to. Many male, high-school dropouts have decided it's a better deal to just coast by on disability and money from friends/family then to work for $10/hour at McDonald's or similar. The way to bring them back into the workforce, IMO, is to offer them a better deal. If low-wage jobs in the U.S. were as good as they are in Eastern…

Another person commented below what I think is brilliant insight.

"In America (USA) you ARE your job; it defines you. The American Way is to be hard working and self sufficient. If you can't do that, there are tremendous psychological effects. You can't blame these men for giving up."

It is absolutely true that worth and career are highly correlated here in the US. Most of us talk about work even when we aren't at work. I think this is probably the big difference between US and Europe having read it.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#44

Post by diN0bot »

cheshireoctopus wrote: post #33
tathougies wrote: post #5

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

> given the propensity of the male psyche to become dependent on dopamine Interesting. This anecdotally appears to be the case. Is there anything to back this point up?

could also be differences in socializations and cultural expectations. consider how we demonize single-moms receiving aid (god forbid they be women of color) and "boys will be boys" males fooling around and playing video games.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#45

Post by scarejunba »

Merrill wrote: post #14

This story really needs another graph showing "NOT-IN-LABOR FORCE RATES FOR WOMEN AGES 25-54; 1965 TO 2019". See https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/images/hipple-fig6.png It appears that the non-participation rate for women is about twice as high as for men.

So the current prevailing theory is that the guys are getting high and playing video games? What's the current prevailing theory for the girls? Doing unformalized work that doesn't show up in the stats? Also playing games and doing drugs?

Re: Education and Men without Work

#46

Post by rimliu »

wccrawford wrote: post #29
supernova87a wrote: post #10

As unpopular it may be to say such a politically incorrect thing (admitting this is a generalization, and all the caveats that come with it) -- Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things. I don't know whether it's hormones or what. Debate all you like elsewhere (I'm not trying to debate that point here). My point is that when they don't get an outlet to do this, they cause trouble.…

"Men generally have the biological need to go do and wander and discover things." I see no evidence that this is a male thing, versus a female thing, or even that all men feel this. I see plenty of men who just coast through life with no curiosity or drive. They don't explore or discover, they just consume and do what they're told so they can consume some more.

And then there is this: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4680619/

Re: Education and Men without Work

#47

Post by Seenso »

tathougies wrote: post #5

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

> Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day.

> Enabled by the preponderance of easily accessible government money, drugs, etc, these men...

The benefits we're talking about here are disability benefits, and the intended outcome of those is that some people will be able to stay at home all day.

"Fixing" this problem by curtailing the benefits would not fix anything, but rather just reintroduce the problems that the benefits solved (like increased economic burdens on loved ones, homelessness, etc.).

Re: Education and Men without Work

#48

Post by downerending »

duxup wrote: post #20
tathougies wrote: post #5

The article is long on detail and short on suggestions (which is understandable). However, the suggestions it does make are not obviously going to work. The men illustrated in the article do not seem incapable of work, but rather disinterested. Vocational training isn't going to fix the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day. Most people (but esp…

> the fact that the government benefits the article cited allows the men to stay at home playing video games all day Is that actually the case? The article takes issue with the narrative that supply and demand are involved ... but I don't think this article proves this idea that folks are enjoying government benefits and that results in them not working. The article certainly mentions it, but is pretty short on evide…

It's not the kind of safety net they're talking about, but a lot of the young are supported at a livable level by their parents. (source: am doing this)

I'd argue that this isn't inherently bad, but ultimately this can amount to "eating one's seed corn". In the long run, twenty-somethings that do this risk a financially more perilous life and a lower chance of being able to give their kids a good start in life.

Re: Education and Men without Work

#49

Post by mrec »

throwaway55554 wrote: post #13

> Among economists and policy analysts who have examined these unsettling trends, the general consensus is that declining male workforce participation in modern America is mainly a structural, demand-driven problem — a matter of evaporating local jobs, and especially jobs requiring limited skills, in an increasingly dynamic and globalized marketplace. Basically these are the men would have traditionally "built stuff"…

You might like the 2014 SSC post "Burdens" [1]. A sample:

> Society got where it is by systematically destroying everything that could have supported him and replacing it with things that required skills he didn’t have.

[1] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/

Re: Education and Men without Work

#50

Post by [deleted] »

scarejunba wrote: post #45
Merrill wrote: post #14

This story really needs another graph showing "NOT-IN-LABOR FORCE RATES FOR WOMEN AGES 25-54; 1965 TO 2019". See https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2016/images/hipple-fig6.png It appears that the non-participation rate for women is about twice as high as for men.

So the current prevailing theory is that the guys are getting high and playing video games? What's the current prevailing theory for the girls? Doing unformalized work that doesn't show up in the stats? Also playing games and doing drugs?

[deleted]
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