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US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

reuters.com

41–50 of 77 posts

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#41
post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

It feels like the US and China are in an undeclared cold war and the US is trying to draw lines to see who is on which side. If you resist using Huawei for example you are more likely on the US side of the fence.

Europe hasn't reached the same level of awareness(paranoia?) that the US has yet.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There appears to be some kind of smear campaign waged against Samsung by its foundry competitor TSMC at national level. Not sure about this insecurity or fake rivalry by Taiwanese tech companies who see Samsung as a major threat ( https://phys.org/news/2013-04-taiwan-tech-industry-samsung.h... ), but according to Reuters: ASML rejects Samsung's involvement in IP theft case with rival , APRIL 17, 2019, https://www.reu…

I don't think it's a smear campaign per say, Samsung stole their their way to display tech dominance. It's just recognition that these tactics are still being embraced in lagging industries in some countries. ASML has no-touch policy for Samsung employees for their scanners, they've been pretty savvy in mitigating attempts at copying their tech for the last 20 years. Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind…

> Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind the attacks ...

Really? After describing XTAL as "owned by Chinese/Korean" when Samsung was just an outside investor and quoting ASML CEO accusing Samsung? Or how about your willful ignorance that Samsung had been a major 5+% "owner" of ASML under customer co-investment program since 2012?

Sure, you may be right. I'm a software engineer, so I don't have any insight in the industry, but you should at least try to look neutral and consistent. Don't forget to wipe your history so as to make it difficult to guess your national origin (though I didn't have to), because it's so easy to see your ulterior motive through the garbage -- it destroys your credibility.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#43
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a smear campaign per say, Samsung stole their their way to display tech dominance. It's just recognition that these tactics are still being embraced in lagging industries in some countries. ASML has no-touch policy for Samsung employees for their scanners, they've been pretty savvy in mitigating attempts at copying their tech for the last 20 years. Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind…

https://bits-chips.nl/artikel/to-asml-china-is-just-another-...

ASML rejects Samsung's involvement in IP theft case with rival, APRIL 17, 2019, https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asml-holding-spying-samsu....

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#44
post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

Maybe if Europe had a powerful military and wasn't dependent on the US for its defense then it could actually tell the US to go pound sand.

But that's expensive and instead you guys get to shovel your money into social programs knowing if push comes to shove we are gonna help out.

The situation in Europe is entirely self-created.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#45
post #4

As a European I feel increasingly concerned about the influence of US in our recent trading decisions. The sense of an alliance feels somewhat imbalanced to say the least. Interestingly whereas we have an advanced hardware industry we’re so far behind on leading software solutions that I doubt there will be any change to this balance any time soon. I guess software is eating the world...

This software imbalance is partially created by the fundamental inequalities contract+IP law creates. Since it grants not just remuneration for the creative, but also control, it's really, really easy to abuse economies of scale, and software is one big capitalist failure in that regard - it's not competitiive at all; one barrier to entry and network effect after the other.

And whereas we by now have e.g. laws that allow transferring (say) a telephone number from one provider to the next; we do not yet have similar protections for the digital equivalents. Want to transfer your facebook account - as in the live account, connections & address & all, not the old data - to a new provider? Good luck with that (frankly, even the data isn't transferable, because the export format isn't an commonly used standard). Want to replace your gmail account with something else? Or, to play on recent events - want to transfer your .org registration to some place not being defrauded by ICANN insiders? All of that's hopeless.

People sometimes claim there are technical difficulties here, but while those are real - they're not the cause for all this lock in. If the alternative to account transferability were bankruptcy, you can bet the big players would have this solved in about next to no time at all; but as it is - the incentives are to suppress competition and leverage the ill-gotten gains from being an early moving and having access to a large, single-language market.

This is also why I'm not so sure china's rise is actually a bad thing - even for the US. The US economy is essentially stagnant; there needs to be a shake-up rather than resting on laurels. IP law currently is less of an incentive to create, and more theft of the commons - the benefits to the private interests are completely out of whack with the costs imposed on society. A country that won't entirely bow to the absurdities of IP law might inspire others for entirely selfish reasons to follow suit - and that might eventually cause the IP oligopoly to crack, and inject more actual dynamism and creativity. Make no mistake, I'm not suggesting china is being nice or anything - it's just that if we're lucky the collateral damage may fall for once in a beneficial direction. Of course, we might not be so lucky, but hey...

If Europe really wants to compete, it should take a look around and adopt a similar less protective stance. France's tax is the wrong direction - instead of taxing the giants, we should break their market power, and prioritize things like flexibility to reassign a facebook account over the trademark holders right to keep the facebook name in house. Copyright should be restrained to FRAND principles, and e.g. not be a way to prevent a competitor from competing (i.e. the oracle vs google api fight) - and perhaps changed fundamentally to discourage rent-seeking where the value of a copyright lies to a significant extent in the network effect, not the actual content (which is pretty often the case, e.g. for shared cultural history like music too).

The deck is fundamentally and anti-competitively stacked; there' little chance of fighting via innovation when there's no way to compete even with innovations.

Obviously, anti-competitive tendencies are just as strong in Europe or China as they are in the US. But given the self-interest in breaking the US IP-backed rent-seekers, and the coinciding (and politically acknowledged) threat of democracy-undermining social bubbles there's a chance for a least some baby-steps towards change.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#46
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American Security guarantees do not come for free. Feeling constrained? then raise an Army and a Navy worth fielding and fighting Russians with out American assistance.

Europe easily outspends Russia in military investments. 287$ billion for Europe, 70$ for Russia in 2015 ( russia vs europe military spend: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=russia+vs+europe+milit... ) So, I don't know where your opinion comes from. But I think you could be better informed ;) Ps. I do think we should buy less US and spend more European. Eg. The F-35 is a joke currently, considering the costs.

Collectively Europe outspends Russia in military investments. However, there is quite a bit of duplication in the individual European armies that make a straight comparison misleading. I suggest that military spending is not an accurate enough indicator of relative strength.

Defense spending alone is meaningless if there is not an accompanying ability/willingness to project power. Russia is certainly not shy about projecting it's power and European countries have been when it comes to Russia. Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia certainly don't feel their security would be guaranteed in the absence of the United States being in NATO. Thanks to a successful Russian campaign to undermine confidence in the United States increasingly U.S. security guarantees are becoming less reliable.

The shift to a multi-polar world has begun. Will European governments rise to the challenge?

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#47
post #36
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Russians want to move their borders to Carpathians to secure their borders given their dwindling demographics (since you can protect will lesser numbers). this is not anything to do with Cold war -- it is natural state of survival. One thing East Europeans get and West Europeans are clueless is the Russian Expansionism. The immediate prescription of half-wits is "Cold War". I did not make the North European P…

> Because Russians want to move their borders to Carpathians Russians will move their border as far as you allow them to. I know their mentality, for I am one, and I grew up in a town full of army and fleet people. I saw many types like that, before I got out of the country. Those will keep bully you more and more to see where you set the line, and punch them back. In their calculus, being punched back is not bad at…

It seems to me that Russia's desire for the Crimea is rational and understandable. It was an accident of history that the Ukraine ended up with Crimea after the split of the Soviet Union. I understand that my belief on this might not be rooted in reality. What is your view of Russia's Crimean desires?

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#48
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a smear campaign per say, Samsung stole their their way to display tech dominance. It's just recognition that these tactics are still being embraced in lagging industries in some countries. ASML has no-touch policy for Samsung employees for their scanners, they've been pretty savvy in mitigating attempts at copying their tech for the last 20 years. Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind…

> Also I didn't mean to implicate Samsung was behind the attacks ... Really? After describing XTAL as "owned by Chinese/Korean" when Samsung was just an outside investor and quoting ASML CEO accusing Samsung? Or how about your willful ignorance that Samsung had been a major 5+% "owner" of ASML under customer co-investment program since 2012? Sure, you may be right. I'm a software engineer, so I don't have any insight…

Samsung is a 30% shareholder of Xtal. Xtal became an immediate ASML competitor for Samsung semiconductor using the theft as implied by "our biggest Korean customer" quoted from ASML CEO in interviews. Stating Samsung is the immediate beneficiary of the theft as conjectured (AKA "hinted") by Dutch media based on ASML CEO interview at the time... is not neutral how? Lot's of IP shenanigan in high barrier semiconductor industry and Korean Chaebol industrial policy has history of IP theft to benefit domestic industries. Please explain how any of my claims triggered you so much:

>Don't forget to wipe your history so as to make it difficult to guess your national origin (though I didn't have to), because it's so easy to see your ulterior motive through the garbage -- it destroys your credibility.

Like what is this even?

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#49
post #35
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I'm glad it's not sold off. Europe has barely any large world leading companies in the digital sector. ASML is one of those world leaders. As for your american influence point, I'd certainly prefer if a strong EU council would block the sale instead of our transatlantic partners, but EU council can't even prevent OBOR in central europe...

The article is not about ASML getting sold, but about ASML selling (or rather, not selling) their product to customers in China.

We've learned in the past few years that Chinese will unscrupulously reverse engineer and/or steal any technology they can.

Re: US Pressed Dutch Gov over ASML Sale

#50
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TBH I'm glad it's not sold off. Europe has barely any large world leading companies in the digital sector. ASML is one of those world leaders. As for your american influence point, I'd certainly prefer if a strong EU council would block the sale instead of our transatlantic partners, but EU council can't even prevent OBOR in central europe...

How does preventing ASML from selling products to Chinese customers help it stay a world leader? A strong EU council would not block such sales.

if no one can sell to them, the Chinese market is a moot point.

Sometimes national security interests supersede a single darling companies bottomline. Plus, considering the Chinese track record of stealing technology, if that machine goes to China, ASML wont be the only one making it in a couple years.

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