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Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

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Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#41

I think the main reason is that creating a so called "Black Box" model is faster and easier to some degree. Its very similar to the argument kids make "Why do I have to learn how to do long division when I have a calculator?" or "Why do I need to show my work on the exam if I got the right answers?" I tend to agree with the articles premise that any model being used in critical decision making should at the very leas…

A little off topic, but also not:

I once worked at data science consultancy. They worked on a project that they ended up using random forest. But they also ran a simple single layer net to validate the results, scoring a similar accuracy (it was like 70%). They gave a presentation on a Friday to the company (it was a regular show and tell demo slot).

At the end, I asked them if they double checked whether the net weights corresponded to the random forest and almost everyone in the room just looked at me like I was an idiot.

I ended up causing a heated discussion in the pub later on because I’d actually done something similar for my masters thesis (it was for modelling XOR operations on binary inputs).

The company in question is notoriously short term focussed, so it shouldn’t really have been a surprise that they didn’t even try to think about it.

And that’s kind of the problem. Short term speculative projects don’t care about interpretability. A director at some clothing firm doesn’t care about the super nerdy maths, they like getting their numbers.

But, on the flip side, Explaining loss functions and backprop is also a no go for the directors. If you can’t help them understand an algorithm in 2 sentences then they often don’t buy it. So then explainability becomes a big thing (hence why random forest was implemented and not the net).

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#42

My understanding is that interpretable models, especially for neural networks, are very far and away from state of the art performance. Work that e.g. tries to approximate neural nets with decision trees have yet to be applied to very large models [1]. Even in computer vision, which is where I think they've been most successful, the visualization techniques used seem more suggestive, then explanatory [2]. [1] http://…

I think it's a real open question whether the interpretable models are actually worse, or merely worse in competition/benchmark problem sets. The more deep models I build, the more I'm convinced that behind every inscrutable parameter hides a certain amount of overfitting, with maybe a few notable exceptions. E.g., can you build a decision tree that's not obviously overfit but is also susceptible to adversarial pertu…

If it can be explained in terms of precise rules, that's called programming.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#43
It's not that accuracy will always be sacrificed if one wants an explainable model. The point is: if interpretability is an important constraint, it could prevent improvements on accuracy.

Sometimes, the best interpretable model is as good as a black box, and that's great.

When this is not the case, the trade-off is that one should see what's more important for the actual problem. Perhaps interpretability is not a big deal.

Another solution is to try to extract interpretability from the more accurate black box model with something like SHAP.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#44
> [...] these black box models are created directly from data by an algorithm, meaning that humans, even those who design them, cannot understand how variables are being combined to make predictions.

So uhhh, isn't this like not science? Like my biggest problem with "machine learning" is people assume the data they have can correctly answer the question they want to answer.

If your data is off, your model might be incredibly close for a huge portion of the population (or for the biased sample you unknowingly have), but then wildly off somewhere else and you won't know until it's too late because it's not science (e.g. racist AI making racist predictions).

A model cannot be accurate if it doesn't have enough information (like predicting crime, or the stock market). There are an insane amount of statistical tests to detect bullshit, and yet we're pushing those and hypothesis testing right out the window when we create models we don't understand.

Like I just don't get how some folks say "look what my AI knows" and assume it's even remotely right without understanding the underlying system of equations and dataset. You honestly don't even know if the answer you're receiving back is to the question you're asking, it might just be strongly correlated bullshit that's undetectable to you the ignorant wizard.

I find it pretty hard to believe we can model the physical forces inside a fucking neutron star (holla at strange matter) but literally no one in the world could pen an equation (model) on how to spot a fucking cat or a hotdog without AI? Of course someone could, it would just feel unrewarding to invest that much time into doing it correctly.

I guess I can sum this up with, I wish people looked at AI more as a tool to help guide our intuition helping us solve problems we already have well defined knowledge (and data) of, and not as an means to an end itself.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#46

My understanding is that interpretable models, especially for neural networks, are very far and away from state of the art performance. Work that e.g. tries to approximate neural nets with decision trees have yet to be applied to very large models [1]. Even in computer vision, which is where I think they've been most successful, the visualization techniques used seem more suggestive, then explanatory [2]. [1] http://…

> Work that e.g. tries to approximate neural nets with decision trees have yet to be applied to very large models

Well, that and a decision tree isn't any more interpretable if its nodes are all filled with `Pixel[i,j] > Threshold` -- or is the idea that you would somehow extract logical predicates by tracing paths through the tree or glean interpretation from those predicates?

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#47

> [...] these black box models are created directly from data by an algorithm, meaning that humans, even those who design them, cannot understand how variables are being combined to make predictions. So uhhh, isn't this like not science? Like my biggest problem with "machine learning" is people assume the data they have can correctly answer the question they want to answer. If your data is off, your model might be in…

> So uhhh, isn't this like not science?

Very little of technology has anything to do with validating hypotheses.

> meaning that humans, even those who design them, cannot understand how variables are being combined to make predictions.

The intention is to not rely on the explanation to evaluate the effectiveness of the model. This does not preclude any of the infinite narratives that might explain the model.

This is fundamentally a cost saving mechanism to avoid hiring engineers to code heuristics useful to business. There is nothing related to science here at all. A "black box" model is fashionable to those who prefer to observe and not create meaning, even if the observed meaning is deeply flawed from a human perspective. After all, people spend money based on less all the time.

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#48
post #32

Can you train a white box solution with only a tagged data set? It seems obvious to me why we have black box solutions even if we could have spent man hours engineering an algorithm.

You actually can - for example https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.10574

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#49
I think it's important to note that human pattern recognition is basically black-box as well.

We can't "explain" how we recognize a particular person's face, for example.

Robust pattern recognition based on 100+'s of factors is just inherently black box.

Even when people make decisions, they're generally a weighted combination of a bunch of "feelings". We attempt to explain a kind of simple, logical rationalization afterwards, but psychologists have shown that this is often a bunch of post-hoc fiction.

Black box doesn't necessarily mean bad. I think the relevant question is: how do we ensure machine learning is trained and verified in ways that don't encode bias, and only used with "intended" inputs, so a model isn't being trusted to make predictions on things it wasn't trained for?

And also: when do we want to decide to use alternatives like decision trees instead -- because despite being less accurate, they can have designers who can be held legally accountable and liable, which can be more important in certain situations?

Re: Why are we using black box models in AI when we don’t need to? (2019)

#50
“Explainability” is a subjective idea that allows people to act as gatekeepers about the use of a model through arbitrary politics.

“The Mythos of Model Interpretability” is good reading on this.

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1606.03490.pdf

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