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How My School and District Failed its Students

anurbanteacherseducation.com

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Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#41

Post by jmm »

protomyth wrote: post #19
jmm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

Up to what age do you consider them "just kids"?

Just because the line is fuzzy doesn't mean there isn't one.

(I'm not sure if you're trying to weaken my argument by challenging the idea of childhood altogether (which would be weird), or if you're just curious. If it's the former, we're probably not going to have a productive discussion. If it's the latter, I'm open to suggestions, though it probably deserves the attention of an educational psychologist or someone like that.)

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#42

Post by jmm »

rumplestetson wrote: post #28
jmm wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

If some people paid by other people want me to sit and listen to them all day and to think about what they want me to think about then it isn't "giving up on me" to let me go and do something else if I would prefer to do so . It's simply acknowledging my status as a human being.

So, pray tell, what would you do as a troublesome young bloke hanging out in Harlem or Kansas City today?

I'll submit that some aspect of keeping kids in school is an attempt to keep those kids out of small trouble now and big trouble later. Paternalistic laws/rules very often rub the most responsible members of society the wrong way when they apply them to themselves. Moreover, applying rules for children to adults will also push your intuitions in a certain way.

Believing in a kid's potential to be a productive member of society, I'd argue, is an even more edifying way of acknowledging their status as a human being. Your version when applied to poor city kids is basically, "sure, it's cool if you want to go become a vandal/drug dealer/future inmate; whatever."

Also, you're giving kids too much credit. Kids will almost always maximize short term payoff at the expense of long term success (hyperbolic discounting?). And good parenting is about balancing those inclinations. In the absence of good parenting, schools can pick up some of the slack.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#43

Post by thedaveoflife »

maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

I do not think it is as simple as you put it; there are situations in urban public schools where student behavior would be beyond the control any teacher or any single person really.

That being said I love your point about not blaming an invsibile system. Every teacher I talk to blames someone else for all the problems in his or her clasroom. The public school system in this country is far from perfect but I believe many of the problems brought up in the original article arise from teachers who are unwilling or unable handle their students appropriately. Stop blaming everyone else and start solving the problem on your own.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#44

Post by kleinsch »

grannyg00se wrote: post #16

I don't agree with the notion that classroom discipline is the teacher's responsibility. If a child needs discipline, the child should be sent away to receive it. A teacher should be responsible for teaching, period. Also, if a child commits a crime in school (vandalism, verbal assault, physical assault, disturbing the peace) and is found to be a threat to the learning environment then they should be suspended. It's…

Definitely. When classroom discipline is solely the teacher's responsibility, the teacher ends up spending all their time enforcing discipline and no time teaching. My girlfriend did Teach for America in the bad parts of Washington, DC and there were veteran teachers there who didn't have as much trouble with discipline because they were basically glorified babysitters. They didn't really teach anything, but they made sure students showed up and didn't kill each other. Works great for keeping things under control, but the kids are completely screwed as far as their education goes.

I don't think the commenters saying that discipline is the teacher's responsibility understand the circumstances involved in some of these schools. We're talking about kids pulling knives on each other or throwing desks, not passing notes in the back of the class.

The teacher also has no control over how much the parents (or in many cases grandparents) will help. My girlfriend had one kid who had to be suspended for throwing a chair at her. When he came back, he said that while he was suspended his dad took him out on a boat and got him ice cream. Suspension was more fun than going to school, so is it surprising that his behavior never changed?

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#45

Post by potatolicious »

jmm wrote: post #8
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

Ha. The pickle here is that we (the government, the bleeding hearts, those capable of compassion) have to acknowledge that these kids were dealt a pretty bad hand, and that they are, after all, still kids. So we owe them a fair shot and some patience -- it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system. Because in one way or another we're part of the system. And they're kids. My sister participated in…

> "it's not acceptable to give up on them as products of the system."

But what about moving them to an alternate system that addresses their basic, fundamental issues with school and education?

It seems backwards to allow the minority to prevent learning for the majority. It also seems backwards to address these kids' issues in the same way as kids ready to learn.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#46

Post by kleinsch »

kijinbear wrote: post #24
davidsiems wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree that attendance should be voluntary this solution doesn't address the whole problem. Part of the problem is that education is not valued - neither by the kids, nor their parents. As a culture we need to make sure education is valued across the board. Another part of the problem is that once these kids are out of school they'll be causing trouble at home or in their neighborhoods. I think a better plan w…

> Make parents responsible for their kids. Right now a lot of parents treat school as daycare for their kids, they don't care what happens there as long as the kids aren't at home. Absolutely agreed. There's very little that a school can do for a kid if the parents don't care what the kid does at school. I'm not sure the solution needs to involve expulsions, but parents definitely need to have a greater responsibilit…

In most Teach for America schools, the choice for some families isn't between parents working to pay for college vs being involved in their child's school. It's a choice between parents working vs the family not eating. When the parents are struggling with subsistence, it's not surprising that they're less concerned with their kids grades.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#47

Post by arethuza »

pavel_lishin wrote: post #38
maxklein wrote: post #36

I come from a family of educators & private school owners, and if a teacher cannot handle a disruptive class, then we change the teacher. Children are ALWAYS disruptive. It's the natural state of things. Some teachers can solve the problem, and some can't. If a teacher cannot solve the problem, it's not the fault of the Government, or the Community, or the Principal or the Students. It's the fault of the teacher. It'…

How many students in private schools throw rocks at teachers, and threaten to break their cracker ass in two? Two part question, if I may - how many students have brought knives to class?

Most good private schools have very little time for disruptive pupils - they know that there is nothing like a "problem" kid for upsetting the classroom and they usually have a long queue of parents desperate to get their kids in.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#48

Post by jordan0day »

As someone from Kansas City, the alleged ineptitude of the school district in KCMO is widely-known. In fact, I would say the problems with the school district impacted the decision of my wife and I more than any other to buy a house across the state line in Kansas. We both continued to work in KCMO, we just knew we couldn't live there once we have children.

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#49

Post by seriesoftubes »

swift wrote: post #17
jellicle wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way would it help society to have more uneducated young people hanging around?

It doesn't seem obvious to me at all that forcing kids to attend school against their will results in them becoming "educated" in any meaningful sense.

I agree--especially when you're talking about forcing bad kids to attend school against their will. The bad kids in urban schools wind up not learning jack, even if they don't drop out. I know this because I've taught 12th graders in a failing urban school where the graduation rate Even worse, forcing bad kids to attend school against their will diminishes the quality of good kids' educations. The good kids are the ones whose powerful minds actually stand a chance of improving civilization in big ways.

Not saying I was a great, great student (I was in the top 3% of a huge public HS, but plenty of other kids were smarter than me), but if I had known how badly I was getting screwed over by taking classes with bullies/people who did not want to learn anything in school except that Jesus is God and every non-Christian is going to Hell, I would've tried to switch schools at a very young age. If I only knew then what I know now...

Re: How My School and District Failed its Students

#50

Post by jrwoodruff »

michaelchisari wrote: post #23
maxharris wrote: post #2

My solution? Make attendance voluntary by abolishing truancy laws. Disruptive students don't want to be there, and forcing them to go doesn't teach them anything. Human beings can't be forced to think. This runs absolutely counter to all kinds of notions and traditions, but it's how nature is. Wishing, legislating and expecting that facts be otherwise won't work any better here than it would in the physical sciences…

From my knowledge of radical education approaches like Summerhill or Ferrer's Modern School, I would agree with that, with one caveat: Students don't have to attend class. They just have to go to school. They can choose, on a daily basis, what class they want to be in. If they disrupt, they're kicked out of class for the day, since attendance at that class is a voluntary association. To get credit and a grade for a c…

I would love to see this concept implemented in an urban setting, under the context of a general education school (rather than a magnate, etc.). While I think it would work for some, I suspect many of these disruptive children probably have major family issues that make it difficult or impossible for them to focus on learning. See: Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

It would certainly be a good starting point though. Something must change, and mandatory testing changes nothing.

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