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Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

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Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#41

Post by pgeorgi »

praptak wrote: post #36
pgeorgi wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. This is about Nordstream 2 I guess. Given how natural gas comes from Russia right now (via Ukraine and Poland), how does this increaase reliance on Russia? It certainly decreases the reliance on Poland (not much of a concern in Germany) and Ukraine (lots of trouble…

Decreasing reliance on Poland (and on Ukraine to a degree) is a concern in Poland though. This combined with our (Polish) politicians being idiotically pro-US makes Poland likely to oppose Merkel on this issue. Which is sad, but you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia.

> you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia

I see a difference between these two situations: Setting up embargoes is a hostile act ("do what we want or else") while setting up tools to avoid embargoes is fundamentally defensive (they don't function without an embargo being in force).

So unless Poland is in favor of the US meddling in European politics (but in that case remember: what goes around comes around; I hope the German administration will be more compassionate when - not if - Poland is on the receiving end of American ire) it should still be slightly positive on anti-embargo measures, even if they disagree on the issue in question.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#42

Post by pgeorgi »

jplayer01 wrote: post #28
Deukhoofd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics?

> Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics? Keyword: Undermined. I feel like you're arguing in bad faith here. I don't see the US undermining anything here except a project that would've made Russia richer and further increased Germany's gas dependence, and by extension political dependence, on Russia. I'd say the project itself was undermining the EU solidarity…

> Keyword: Undermined

The independence of European politics from US influence is really impressive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Morales_grounding_incident

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#43

Post by praptak »

pgeorgi wrote: post #41
praptak wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Decreasing reliance on Poland (and on Ukraine to a degree) is a concern in Poland though. This combined with our (Polish) politicians being idiotically pro-US makes Poland likely to oppose Merkel on this issue. Which is sad, but you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia.

> you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia I see a difference between these two situations: Setting up embargoes is a hostile act ("do what we want or else") while setting up tools to avoid embargoes is fundamentally defensive (they don't function without an embargo being in force). So unless Poland is in favor of the US meddling in European politic…

Nordstream enables Russian embargoes against Ukraine and Poland. This is why Poland perceives its creation as hostile.

In theory, yes, Poland could take the long term view and support anti-meddling measures. But our current government is at idiotic levels of both anti-EU and pro-US sentiment, which is a problem that's totally separate from the Nordstream issue.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#46

Post by Youden »

richliss wrote: post #40

The disrespect that Germany is showing the US is mind boggling. The US being part of NATO is the greatest deal the other countries have ever signed/received. The US spends nearly $700 Billion per year compared to Germany’s nearly $56 Billion per year on its military. The US needs to start sending ultimatums - you are either part of NATO and therefore don’t enrich Russia by buying their resources and pay your fair sha…

> The US spends nearly $700 Billion per year compared to Germany’s nearly $56 Billion per year on its military.

The US spends that much by choice, not necessity.

> All Europeans need to understand the financial burden US tax payers meet to keep us safe.

Safe from what? The US military hasn't fought to protect anybody since WWII and there's frankly no realistic threat that Europe needs to be protected from. The EU already spends three times as much on its military as Russia and two (soon to be one) EU members are nuclear states.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#47

Post by TazeTSchnitzel »

Youden wrote: post #46
richliss wrote: post #40

The disrespect that Germany is showing the US is mind boggling. The US being part of NATO is the greatest deal the other countries have ever signed/received. The US spends nearly $700 Billion per year compared to Germany’s nearly $56 Billion per year on its military. The US needs to start sending ultimatums - you are either part of NATO and therefore don’t enrich Russia by buying their resources and pay your fair sha…

> The US spends nearly $700 Billion per year compared to Germany’s nearly $56 Billion per year on its military. The US spends that much by choice, not necessity. > All Europeans need to understand the financial burden US tax payers meet to keep us safe. Safe from what? The US military hasn't fought to protect anybody since WWII and there's frankly no realistic threat that Europe needs to be protected from. The EU alr…

And the US's recent meddling in the Middle East arguably made things “worse” in Europe, if the large number of refugees is to be considered a problem.

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#48

Post by nickbauman »

nickbauman wrote: post #11
jplayer01 wrote: post #7

This is all about German politicians who've been bought out by Russian interests trying to protect their pet project(s). Speaking as a German, the fact that Germany would rather deal with and be reliant on a country like Russia is, frankly, insane and incredibly shameful. It's as if Ukraine didn't happen, nor Russian interference of elections across the Western world. For all the bad that the US does, at least they d…

This cannot be overstated. Russia is a Mafia State: Where the Russian Mafia == Russian Government. This is not a country you cozy up with. It will not end well.

Can someone explain to me why this being downvoted? Is the assertion of Russia being a Mafia State in question?

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#49

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

jplayer01 wrote: post #28
Deukhoofd wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For all the bad that the US does, at least they don't invade and annex European countries, and try to undermine European politics. Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics?

> Did you really just post that under an article about how the US is undermining European politics? Keyword: Undermined. I feel like you're arguing in bad faith here. I don't see the US undermining anything here except a project that would've made Russia richer and further increased Germany's gas dependence, and by extension political dependence, on Russia. I'd say the project itself was undermining the EU solidarity…

Ahem! May i point to this little gem?

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL_GShyGv3o (Victoria Nuland saying what she thinks of the EU)

Furthermore... in all of the cold war the Soviets never failed to deliver, why exactly should Russia do so now?

Re: Germany Calls for European Firewall Against U.S. Sanctions

#50

Post by LargoLasskhyfv »

praptak wrote: post #43
pgeorgi wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you don't get to call for unity against US while simultaneously unilaterally breaking EU unity against Russia I see a difference between these two situations: Setting up embargoes is a hostile act ("do what we want or else") while setting up tools to avoid embargoes is fundamentally defensive (they don't function without an embargo being in force). So unless Poland is in favor of the US meddling in European politic…

Nordstream enables Russian embargoes against Ukraine and Poland. This is why Poland perceives its creation as hostile. In theory, yes, Poland could take the long term view and support anti-meddling measures. But our current government is at idiotic levels of both anti-EU and pro-US sentiment, which is a problem that's totally separate from the Nordstream issue.

Well, if LPG from the U.S. is such a good thing, why don't they buy it then, and be done with all that russian pipeline dependance? It's a FREE MARKET in a free world, isn't it?
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