Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video] • Hacker News Board

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#41

Post by MarcScott » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 11:22 PM UTC

I work for the Raspberry Pi Foundation, and we are very involved with the NCCE which SPJ talked about.

If any of your are even slightly inspired by what was talked about in this video, and would like to get involved with teaching the next generation of hackers, then I'd like to suggest that you think about starting or supporting one of the clubs SPJ mentioned.

CodeClubs are school based clubs that you can run in a local school. We provide all the resources and guidance you need, and you can get involved here.

https://codeclub.org/en/

Coder Dojos are clubs that are run at weekends, in libraries, offices and community centers. Again, we provide educational resources to help you out.

https://coderdojo.com/

Both of these clubs are international. So it doesn't matter which country you are based in.

Also happy to answer any questions people have.

Oh, and if you have kids and want to get them started, checkout some of our projects. These are the Scratch ones.

https://projects.raspberrypi.org/en/projects?software%5B%5D=...

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#42

Post by gnufx » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 11:23 PM UTC

0898 wrote: post #32

I unknowingly met him once in 2002 or 2003, and I’ve just this second realised who he was. I was visiting Microsoft Research in Cambridge writing an article for PC Format magazine, a British computer mag. They took me to see a few people to show off Microsoft Research. There was this one guy who talked to me in his office. He got very excited about Haskell (which I didn’t know what it was) and he was also working on…

That work might have been https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/a-user-...

Perhaps it's significant in context that a writer for a UK computing mag wouldn't know of SPJ. Would they know of any UK CS luminaries, like Hoare?

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#43

Post by OJFord » Thu, Nov 28, 2019, 11:36 PM UTC

MarcScott wrote: post #35

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics. And this was a bog-standard state school. So…

Not any more. I think you'll find that the maths specifications have been trimmed down a little.[1] Now we have discrete Computer Science at GCSE and A-Level. [1] https://filestore.aqa.org.uk/resources/mathematics/specifica...

Within mathematics, the 'D' (e.g. D1) modules are 'discrete' at A level, and are mostly (basic) graph theory/algorithms.

Cf. 'S' (Statistics), 'M' (Mechanics, i.e. mathematics of physics), 'C' (Core), and 'FP' (Further Pure).

You're right that Computer Science/Computing is separate, but it's not a particularly common and certainly not a required choice for people pursuing CS, many view it as unworthwhile/a joke either in advance or retrospect.

Certainly when I went through they'd far rather you took as much mathematics as possible (which can be three full A levels - Mathematics/Further/Additional if you take all of the modules) followed by sciences. A faculty member at Cambridge expressed an explicit preference for Latin over Computing at A level.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#44

Post by closeparen » Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 5:33 AM UTC

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

hackermailman wrote: post #2

Shriram Krishnamurthi of Brown University already accomplished this and gave a great talk about the problems of creating a new course, when you can just shove it into the existing math classes without needing to hire thousands of specialist teachers or worry about yet another mandatory class where schools reduce the rigor, or worry about students not even being able to take the class because they are in remedial clas…

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics. And this was a bog-standard state school. So…

I’m thankful every day for getting into programming early enough to know that the adults saying “programming is like math” were full of shit. No career could be less appealing than cranking arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives for 8 hours day in and day out, which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12. If it were introduced to me in that context and by teachers with that mindset, I wouldn’t be here.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#45

Post by em-bee » Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 7:38 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #44

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics. And this was a bog-standard state school. So…

I’m thankful every day for getting into programming early enough to know that the adults saying “programming is like math” were full of shit. No career could be less appealing than cranking arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives for 8 hours day in and day out, which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12. If it were introduced to me in that context and by teachers with that mindset, I wouldn’t…

well the parent doesn't make programming be like math, but extends math into programming. i didn't have that experience in my school but i can imagine that it would make math actually more interesting for some. otherwise you are right of course. programming is very different from regular K12 math.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#46

Post by chrisseaton » Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 9:02 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #44

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics. And this was a bog-standard state school. So…

I’m thankful every day for getting into programming early enough to know that the adults saying “programming is like math” were full of shit. No career could be less appealing than cranking arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives for 8 hours day in and day out, which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12. If it were introduced to me in that context and by teachers with that mindset, I wouldn’t…

> which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12

But you have it backwards. When programming is introduced as maths people see how maths is more than ‘ arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives’.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#47

Post by 0898 » Fri, Nov 29, 2019, 7:12 PM UTC

gnufx wrote: post #42

0898 wrote: post #32

I unknowingly met him once in 2002 or 2003, and I’ve just this second realised who he was. I was visiting Microsoft Research in Cambridge writing an article for PC Format magazine, a British computer mag. They took me to see a few people to show off Microsoft Research. There was this one guy who talked to me in his office. He got very excited about Haskell (which I didn’t know what it was) and he was also working on…

That work might have been https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/publication/a-user-... Perhaps it's significant in context that a writer for a UK computing mag wouldn't know of SPJ. Would they know of any UK CS luminaries, like Hoare?

Yes, that’s it. Good find. I’m the first to admit I was an IT dilettante, despite covering it.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#48

Post by Ericson2314 » Sat, Nov 30, 2019, 8:38 PM UTC

dboreham wrote: post #39

Ericson2314 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in America, these views are necessary to push against for-profit faux trade school blather. The Krishnamurthi stuff referenced in the leading comment which is quite similar has been actually studied; there is evidence it is a better curriculum. Perhaps we need trade schools too, but primary education should not be that. Also, it's not all abstract nonsense without computers. Learning to hand-evaluate functio…

Careful there: long arithmetic probably isn't a great example, since it has no purpose to someone with a calculator -- it would be better to spend the time teaching number theory, no? And, I believe it's important to convey that "this method really only makes sense if you have a computer". Nothing turns students off like mechanical wrote method learning.

Everyone should know how to hand-substitute lambdas and do arithmetic slowly. We should skip all the rote crap to make people faster.

Re: Simon Peyton-Jones on computer science in school curriculums [video]

#49

Post by GolDDranks » Mon, Dec 02, 2019, 5:52 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #44

chrisseaton wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when you can just shove it into the existing math classes This is how it's already done in the UK, and has been for decades. When I was in high-school (or rather the UK equivalent) about twenty years ago we did discrete maths, algorithms, and data structures in the regular maths classes. I don't think computers were even mentioned - it was all described as maths topics. And this was a bog-standard state school. So…

I’m thankful every day for getting into programming early enough to know that the adults saying “programming is like math” were full of shit. No career could be less appealing than cranking arithmetic, polynomials, integrals, and derivatives for 8 hours day in and day out, which is of course what “math” means when you’re in K12. If it were introduced to me in that context and by teachers with that mindset, I wouldn’t…

After well into getting programming, I finally started appreciating the phrase "programming is like math" - part of it was me learning more about programming and computer science, but most of it was because I realized that what we call "math" isn't all of math, and there's a wealth of interesting computational topics in math that doesn't fit the standard school curriculum thing.

Maybe it's just semantics, but I think our common perception of math is too narrow.