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KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

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Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#41
post #6

How/where are people getting their PCBs manufactured and assembled? Are cheap chinese services reliable? How do you protect your IP when using manufacturing services?

I use JLCPCB for most everything.

However, they're REALLY prickly about fabricating PCBs with lower tolerances (e.g. drills or cuts too close to PCB edges), and often refuse to fabricate them. I use ALLPCB in those cases.

As my designs are small hobbyist projects just for myself I don't really care about potential IP issues.

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#42
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A rough but well integrated auto-router If you're depending on an auto-router, you're doing it wrong.

I'm not depending on an auto-router, which is why I went through the exertion of adding the word "rough" in my post. Auto-routers are a very nice time saver to get something going quickly. Also, you have strictly no idea what kind of design I'm working on and therefore no idea what constraints - or lack thereof - I have to deal with when I design boards. Finally, I've heard so many boomer EDA folks spew out this lame…

If you have design requirements that warrant using an auto-router, I don't think you'd be posting on HN asking for it in an open source CAD package.

No, they're not for getting anything going quickly. Route it yourself so your boards don't look like absolute garbage. Unlike a compiled programming language, aesthetics matter, and you get no optimization from an autorouted board unless you're doing something like routing the exact same trace a hundred times over for some super simple parallel bus.

Which, again, I'm pretty sure you'd know what you were doing enough to not ask about an autorouter feature on HN if that were the case.

This coming to you from an early 20's "boomer".

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#43
post #3
post #2

Hopefully, EDA tools for chip-design will get similar attention too, as well as a "normal" CADs. Software like LibreCAD[1] and FreeCAD[2], Qucs[3], gEDA[4], Yosys[5] and Symbiflow[6], Chisel/FIRRTL[7], OpenROAD initiative[8], Degate[9], and many others. [1] https://librecad.org/ [2] https://www.freecadweb.org/ [3] https://github.com/Qucs [4] http://www.geda-project.org/ [5] http://www.clifford.at/yosys/ [6] https://s…

Is there a high level overview, for programmers, of how chip design software works? Something I eventually want to investigate is building some of those pieces of software but I have no idea where to get started learning about that ecosystem. From a software perspective I have a good understanding of how source gets turned into machine code, which gets packaged into shared object code, which then gets linked into a b…

The GP mixed up hardware compiler and board layout tools.

KiCad (funded by CERN) and LibreCAD are pretty good PCB layout and routing tools. Since Autodesk bought Eagle, they're the Open Source "great hopes."

For PCB tools, you should just join an existing project since there's several Open Source ones and we need better ones, not more. This is a suitable long-term hobby if you occasionally make boards yourself. Especially welcome if you work on the parts library UI and items.

Chisel, etc. are hardware compiler tools, not board layout tools.

You should get a job at a chip or HFT company and have them pay you to learn and apply this stuff.

The commercial software is shitty since the vendors spend more on keeping their license dongles up-to-date than adding features.

Source: worked at a company that designed a 400 million transistor chip. Most of my X-co-workers worked on the A11 and A12.

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#44
post #26
post #4

Kicad is an amazing tool. Not easy to get into, kind of like vim in that regard, but when mastered, it's really powerful. With that in place, I wish it had: . Something to import LTSpice files directly into its schematics tool (or even better, go back and forth) . A rough but well integrated auto-router . A better parts library management system (the current one is really bad). But even without those, designing elect…

> A rough but well integrated auto-router If you're depending on an auto-router, you're doing it wrong.

There's a lot of autorouter hate in the electronics community which I think has a basis in truth, but is in danger of losing sight of the big picture.

Autorouters can be terrible. They mainly are. The reasons are partially with optimisation algorithms (although these are getting better), but primarily with poorly defined constraints.

Currently a schematic holds the physical connections and maybe a little bit of extra data - some pins might be "power" pins, or maybe a net or two is defined as a high current net - but broadly the circuit metadata which is highly relevant for routing is held in the designers head.

When you lay out a board you're always thinking about high current and high frequency (and especially high current high frequency) paths. You're looking for paths to ground, you're isolating sensitive analog regions from noisy digital regions, you're making sure the ground plane is uninterrupted. You're basically making thousands of tiny tradeoffs based on an understanding of what the board should be doing. If a computer doesn't have that knowledge, of course it can't effectively lay out a board.

If we can improve schematic annotation and part representation to properly hold this information then there's absolutely no reason autorouters can't be better than manual layout. If we can combine it with simulation then autorouting should really be the only logical choice. If you can almost completely avoid EMC testing by carefully defining all the high frequency nets and letting the autorouter find a design which is optimised for RF performance, then why wouldn't you? An EMC chamber costs thousands of dollars a day - you can easily spend 10s of thousands just on the testing alone, not to mention redesign costs.

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#45
post #25
post #6

How/where are people getting their PCBs manufactured and assembled? Are cheap chinese services reliable? How do you protect your IP when using manufacturing services?

1. I use PCBWay, a chinese fab that can manufacture small quantities for like $5 (+$18 shipping if you want them fast) but they arrive in five days. 2. Protecting your IP with your PCB design isn't something you can really do. Any PCB can be reverse engineered very easily. Besides, if you're asking this question on a random internet forum, I have to doubt you have any serious IP to worry about.

Can vouch for PCBWay, inexpensive and fast (even with DHL shipping from China).

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#46
post #6

How/where are people getting their PCBs manufactured and assembled? Are cheap chinese services reliable? How do you protect your IP when using manufacturing services?

Still using OSH Park, never had an issue. Your secret IP had better not be your circuit board. That’s a losing proposition.

OSH Park and OSH Stencils are both great!

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#47
post #44
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A rough but well integrated auto-router If you're depending on an auto-router, you're doing it wrong.

There's a lot of autorouter hate in the electronics community which I think has a basis in truth, but is in danger of losing sight of the big picture. Autorouters can be terrible. They mainly are. The reasons are partially with optimisation algorithms (although these are getting better), but primarily with poorly defined constraints. Currently a schematic holds the physical connections and maybe a little bit of extra…

There are tons of rule of thumb routing design choices made that lead to being able to route incredibly complex PCB's which becomes a topological problem. Rules that would need to be either programmed into such a system, or somehow potentially AI could use a huge corpus of board designs and schematics to make a better auto router.

My point is that as they stand currently, autorouters are absolute trash and you should not be depending on them.

The only real place they work is when you have a trivial routing situation but it would be incredibly tedious to route by hand, like a bus with 100+ traces or something.

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#48
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDA tools are a different beast... There is a reason why the field is completely monopolized by the big three - Cadence, Synopsys, and Mentor Graphics. And a lot of the tools you mentioned are targeted towards FPGA design rather than full or semi-custom ASIC design. The big three have tools that can handle both.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Relative to something like Microsoft Office they’re tiny and we have open competitive solutions there (a product notorious for a billion corner cases). And let’s not forget “EDA software” was single handedly pioneered by one woman and some lisp. Before then, it was hundreds of men taping out circuits on 4x8’ ply with...physical tape who all complained the labor and complexity costs w…

Are you seriously trying to compare document processors to state of the art EDA tools?

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Relative to something like Microsoft Office they’re tiny and we have open competitive solutions there (a product notorious for a billion corner cases). And let’s not forget “EDA software” was single handedly pioneered by one woman and some lisp. Before then, it was hundreds of men taping out circuits on 4x8’ ply with...physical tape who all complained the labor and complexity costs w…

To make things more concrete than "big" or "relatively...tiny", some quick googling puts Cadence's annual R&D spending at a little less than $1B and Synopsys's around $1.2B. Mentor Graphics is part of Siemens, so that'd be harder to figure out.

It’s a strawman. I never used “big” in an absolute sense, so it’s implied that I meant “big” in their field.

Re: KiCad Joins Linux Foundation to Advance Electronic Design Automation

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves. Relative to something like Microsoft Office they’re tiny and we have open competitive solutions there (a product notorious for a billion corner cases). And let’s not forget “EDA software” was single handedly pioneered by one woman and some lisp. Before then, it was hundreds of men taping out circuits on 4x8’ ply with...physical tape who all complained the labor and complexity costs w…

Since you seem to know, what company would one go to for fabricating a 500nm chip these days at that price?

500nm feature size is positively ancient. Any of the myriad fabless companies won't even care about those dinosaur technologies.

I would try the local university with an electronics program.

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