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A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

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Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#41

Post by ben509 »

There's a solution to the congestion problem that works even without AVs: private ownership of roads and automated pricing.

Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road. If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route and time to drive, people can make better decisions.

And people living nearby should be able to collect nuisance fees from road operators by measuring traffic volume. The operators can build baffling to reduce the volume, or simply increase the cost of using that road to offset the fees paid. (And, of course, the operator has to pay to maintain the road, and it's a lot easier to sue a private entity if potholes damage your vehicle.)

And if data on the cost of commuting is readily available, employers can be required to pay for it as part of a standard labor contract, and they can offer employees incentives to move, adjust schedules to minimize costs, work remotely, etc.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#42

Post by maxerickson »

CydeWeys wrote: post #28
maxerickson wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Solving it is better than continuing to live with it.

The point they're making is that the only possible solution is to solve the land use problem, so that the majority of people can live lives that don't require individual automobiles. Broadly speaking, this means building densely enough that walking, biking, and mass transit are suitable for most trips.

Yes, their point is clear enough.

My point is that the politics of landuse are hopeless enough that other mitigations will be more beneficial for quite some time to come.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#43

Post by jfk13 »

kjksf wrote: post #3

Here's what this research tells me: demand for transportation is much higher than the current use of transportation. Current use is limited by cost and convenience. Self-driving car is likely to fix both so it'll lead to more use of transportation. This is a good thing. We're currently deprived and if things go well, we'll get more of what we want. The congestion problem is mostly overblown. First, maybe with rare ex…

> ...it'll lead to more use of transportation.

> This is a good thing.

Why? Wouldn't it be better if we could reduce our dependence on (mechanised) transportation overall?

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#44

Post by Shivetya »

Pretty much ignores the fact that once society adapts to having driver less cars they will lapse back into their standard habits and pattern on use fairly quickly.

let alone ignore the fact that many services will pop up doing the driving for many different people across all hours of the day freeing many from own the vehicle in the first place. you might even have the modern day equivalent of time sharing where you pay to have priority access to a vehicle.

the test was so bad as to be laughable, seriously, drawing such conclusions from such a small control set is only useful for proving something a select group wants to believe.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#45

Post by uryga »

ben509 wrote: post #41

There's a solution to the congestion problem that works even without AVs: private ownership of roads and automated pricing. Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road. If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route and time to drive, people can make better decisions. And people living nearby should be able to collect nu…

> private ownership of roads and automated pricing

i'd love to have a full tank of gas but not be able to drive somewhere because my card's maxed out! fun end-of-month times

> Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road

[EDIT: removed - misunderstood the quote]

> If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route

how is that a good thing? it sounds like a black mirror episode.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#46

Post by balt_s »

ben509 wrote: post #41

There's a solution to the congestion problem that works even without AVs: private ownership of roads and automated pricing. Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road. If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route and time to drive, people can make better decisions. And people living nearby should be able to collect nu…

I would like to live in a world where people are good-faith coordinated enough to make this possible, but I think we don't live in anything like that world.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#47

Post by mmanfrin »

ben509 wrote: post #41

There's a solution to the congestion problem that works even without AVs: private ownership of roads and automated pricing. Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road. If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route and time to drive, people can make better decisions. And people living nearby should be able to collect nu…

Privatizing roads is absolutely not a solution. People do not choose to drive congested roads, they already have traffic information available to them in the form of google maps. All your solution would do is make it prohibitively infeasible foe many to drive, cutting them off from jobs. A few at the top would see less traffic, but roads only for the 1% aren't really something we should be aiming for.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#48

Post by rrrrrrrrrrrryan »

CydeWeys wrote: post #16
kjksf wrote: post #3

Here's what this research tells me: demand for transportation is much higher than the current use of transportation. Current use is limited by cost and convenience. Self-driving car is likely to fix both so it'll lead to more use of transportation. This is a good thing. We're currently deprived and if things go well, we'll get more of what we want. The congestion problem is mostly overblown. First, maybe with rare ex…

> The congestion problem is mostly overblown. It's really not. Congestion is a huge problem already, and increasing the current road utilization by 83% will bring entire cities to a standstill for the entirety of waking hours. > I just eyeballed but ~80% cars were single person. Yes, and in the AV future the majority of cars on the road will have zero occupants, so things will get much, much worse as far as how many…

We're going to have to slowly shift to more usage-based pricing if we want autonomous cars to work. Start off charging tolls per mile for zero occupancy vehicles when they drive in congested areas, then expend it to single occupancy vehicles in congested areas, etc.

A bit more controversial, but I personally love the idea of a congestion-free fast lane (say, 100+ mph) exclusively for autonomous vehicles, with prices that fluctuate based on supply and demand. We already have this for a couple freeways in Southern California and it's lovely to have as an option.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#49

Post by tux1968 »

6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #39
kjksf wrote: post #3

Here's what this research tells me: demand for transportation is much higher than the current use of transportation. Current use is limited by cost and convenience. Self-driving car is likely to fix both so it'll lead to more use of transportation. This is a good thing. We're currently deprived and if things go well, we'll get more of what we want. The congestion problem is mostly overblown. First, maybe with rare ex…

How would robotaxis fix the ~80% of cars being single person? It seems like it would make it even worse, replacing some of those with zero people in the car.

True, but if you're alone, you could pay less to share a ride with others being picked up and dropped off along the way to your destination.

Re: A Week with Chauffeurs Showed the Major Flaw in a Self-Driving Car Future

#50

Post by zozbot234 »

ben509 wrote: post #41

There's a solution to the congestion problem that works even without AVs: private ownership of roads and automated pricing. Right now, you don't really pay to use roads, you only pay a gas tax to drive on any road. If specific roads were all tolled, and your navigation app (or AV) can tell you the cheapest route and time to drive, people can make better decisions. And people living nearby should be able to collect nu…

Congestion pricing would work quite well (and is finally gaining traction in some city centers), private ownership not so much. Most roads are essentially a natural monopoly, plus there are holdout problems where one private operator charging too much for road traffic screws other road owners, not just users. There's no easy alternative to public ownership.
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