Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions • Hacker News Board

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#41

Post by lonelappde » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:12 PM UTC

nlh wrote: post #22

To build on what another commenter said, the idea of manager READMEs made perfect sense when they started out a few years ago - here are my quirks, here’s how I operate, etc. The problem is they’ve turned into something that justifies bad behavior more often than not. So many of them have this undercurrent of “I’m an asshole - don’t take it personally!” which is just totally not OK. The solution isn’t to proudly broa…

If someone tells you they are an asshole, the problem isn't that they told you.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#42

Post by lonelappde » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:13 PM UTC

11thEarlOfMar wrote: post #21

I wrote one for myself that is yet to be published. Will give it a 2nd thought. The reason I thought it would be helpful is that I am not a high feedback person. I seldom praise (need to work on that), I am not expressive, I've been told I 'play my cards close to the vest.' by someone who directly reported to me. That really got me thinking that maybe the circumstances where I am not getting what I want is because my…

Please don't cut off your effort communicating with your reports because a bunch of misanthropes on HN hate on people who make an effort.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#43

Post by munchbunny » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

sysbin wrote: post #6

I'm wondering if anyone has been in a manager-less team. I would like to think that's possible and if so what was the experience like?

It tends to work for small early teams, but it tends to not survive growth and turnover. The reason is that in order to make it work you have to rely extremely heavily on behavioral norms and a “social contract” that every team member exercises restraint, and in practice that’s very hard to enforce without a hierarchy.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#44

Post by kingbirdy » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:15 PM UTC

astura wrote: post #19

This is the silliest, most ridiculous, and self absorbed thing I've read in a while. So much so that I suspect it's actually satire. If it's not then silicon valley sounds like another planet, in my 2+ decades of employment I've never had any sort of issues with management. If I have any questions, I ask, if I have any feedback, I give it. That clears up any ambiguity.

> in my 2+ decades of employment I've never had any sort of issues with management

Then you're incredibly fortunate. I've had to deal with management issues at multiple companies in a shorter span of time.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#45

Post by lonelappde » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:16 PM UTC

convolvatron wrote: post #23

sysbin wrote: post #6

I'm wondering if anyone has been in a manager-less team. I would like to think that's possible and if so what was the experience like?

it works fine as long as everyone is extremely reasonable, and everyone's primary motivation is the success of the project. unfortunately, this is very unlikely to be true. and increasingly less so as the team size increases. one confounding factor here is the heavy use of religion to guide technical decisions. the decisions we make now about the direction of the product and the attributes of the codebase are largely…

Yes, teams don't need managers unless they have people that need managing. Also, teams don't need developers if they don't have any code that needs writing. Ignorant dismissal of the value of other kinds of work besides their own, combined with a lashing out against suggestion that they might not be perfect, is one of (a vocal portion of? HN's nasty vices.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#46

Post by PragmaticPulp » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:20 PM UTC

lonelappde wrote: post #40

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not do both? "Hey folks, here's my README, I'd encourage you to write something similar and share it with everybody." When it comes to team building, I think it's much more valuable to say "this is how we operate" instead of having everyone write down "this is how I operate". The former is a mutual guidebook for everyone to work together, while the latter feels like an edict that everyone else needs to work aro…

How do you handle the case where two people operate differently but need to interoperate?

De-escalate any tension between the two people

Check for any overtly abusive behavior that requires correction. Usually rare, but worth checking.

Provide basic coaching and suggestions for working together in a healthy manner.

And most importantly: Let them know that they're expected to figure out how to operate together on their own like professionals. Managers can't be mediators for every impedance mismatch between employees.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#47

Post by mharroun » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

Ugh as someone with 12 years of experience and about 8 ish in a teach lead/management role. This seems super weird to me.

An Engineering Manger/Director/VP/CTO's main job is 2 things.

- To be the over arching intermediate between engineering and other business units (note: this does not mean walling off engineering, engineers SHOULD understand and work with business units when it makes sense).

- To support, mentor, shield, and basically do what ever is necessary for their team/department/org to be as successful as possible.

This sounds VERY self centered and I honestly believe product and engineering managers need to be to most selfless people possible to actually be effective. I would call it backwards even... a leader/manager needs to tailor himself and his approach to both his people and his cross-department equals in order to be the most successful.

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#48

Post by fogetti » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:21 PM UTC

exactchange wrote: post #35

Unpopular opinion: In Silicon Valley, people managers can easily be a waste of time and money, and can cause unnecessary drama on your team. Think about the kind of so-called developer who would rather manage people than write code. We still need founders, executives, directors, advisors, etc. don't get me wrong. But has anyone ever come across an engineering manager worth their salt? Why did we start deploying peopl…

Your message really needs context otherwise it's just a random rant.

BTW no-one is deploying managers out of thin air. At least not in startups. What I can often see instead is that someone in the higher-ups needs OKRs, and he also wants to know your performance (and also others' on the team) so that he can decide who deserves a salary raise, and he would like to read a summary report about the highest priority project's progress during last week. Plus he would like someone to represent the team's technical standpoint next week when meeting a prospective client, plus he needs someone who goes around the team and asks what bothers them and what would the team like to see changed in their work environment, plus he also needs someone who hires new team members, plus he would also like to organize the mentoring of the junior members and would like to see someone be involved in the product roadmap discussions from the engineering side to make strategic decisions, plus he wants to build a new team and he wants to understand who would be the best candidate to participate in it, etc. The list goes on and on.

So who will do all these things? Most devs absolutely hate doing these things because it's not technical enough for their fastidious taste. Designers and PMs OTOH have no technical knowledge to make strategic engineering decisions on higher level than the individual level (and not even on the individual level many times).

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#49

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:24 PM UTC

pnine wrote: post #11

jasoncartwright wrote: post #5

Perhaps it's cultural (I'm from the UK), but I can't imagine writing something so painfully self-absorbed - and then expecting people to read it.

When I read the hn title I thought the direct reports wrote a readme about the manager. That made a whole lot more sense to me. How many coffees does (he/she) need to drink before it’s ok to approach their desk. How much detail do they require when explaining an issue. These are the features I’d like documented for new hires.

[deleted]

Re: Unlike Babies, the Best Managers Come with Instructions

#50

Post by astura » Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 5:25 PM UTC

kingbirdy wrote: post #44

astura wrote: post #19

This is the silliest, most ridiculous, and self absorbed thing I've read in a while. So much so that I suspect it's actually satire. If it's not then silicon valley sounds like another planet, in my 2+ decades of employment I've never had any sort of issues with management. If I have any questions, I ask, if I have any feedback, I give it. That clears up any ambiguity.

> in my 2+ decades of employment I've never had any sort of issues with management Then you're incredibly fortunate. I've had to deal with management issues at multiple companies in a shorter span of time.

Sure, but a README doesn't magically fix shitty management, if anything it just a justification for it.

Not to mention people are just horrifying bad at seeing themselves as others see them. I think of the scene in A Christmas Story when the kid expects to get a glowing review of his paper but instead got a D grade. It actually reminded me of a family member of mine who got called into his boss's office. He was bragging that he was going to get a bonus or promotion and instead he got a demotion due to poor performance and bad work ethic.

I've had five software jobs and five unskilled jobs.