Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools • Hacker News Board

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#41

Post by ElFitz » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:03 AM UTC

torranceyang wrote: post #12

I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality. The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the…

I wonder how much of this is culturally specific. I went in the same middle and high schools as my classmates (none American nor in the US), yet our behaviors towards teachers couldn't have been more different.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#42

Post by mattmcknight » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:03 AM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #31

_bxg1 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The state already imposes certain basic aspects of welfare on children, from vaccines to the fact that they have to go to school at all. In fact (I believe) private schools already have to be certified by the state. So it wouldn't be an enormous leap to simply stop certifying private organizations that want to play the role of state-certified educational institution.

Would you ban private after-schools too? For example, my children attend Russian School of Math, which has branches around the country, especially in the Northeast. Chinese parents have created supplemental schools where Chinese language, English, art, contest math and other things are taught. If you ban physical after-schools, do you then ban online classes such as the math classes offered by the Art of Problem Solv…

In Korea, there have been numerous attempts to ban or limit these after school school activities, educating preschoolers in English, etc. https://www.scmp.com/news/asia/east-asia/article/2127795/sou... https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/nation/2019/07/181_272659.h... http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180105000636

It has gotten to the point where some students are sleeping during compulsory public school classes and doing most of their work at hagwon and then studying into the night.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#43

Post by Arbalest » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:06 AM UTC

Much of this article discusses the content of the books. The majority in the top section is pretty neutral. Then the final 3 or 4 paragraphs does some token disagreement that I feel really should be discussed more, particularly as I may (likely) side with the book author rather than the conservative post author here.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#44

Post by rfeather » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:13 AM UTC

Bostonian wrote: post #26

_bxg1 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget. Most of the social problems stemming from capitalism center around the fact that having money gives you and yours disproportionate opportunities for improving your socioeconomic position even more , ad infinitum. Cut out that circular effect wherever possible, and you app…

"Private schools could be outlawed. Rich parents who want their children to go to better schools can donate to their city's public education budget." This awful idea makes sense only if you think the state owns people's children. As a parent it is my right, within certain bounds, to decide how my children are educated.

We already ban lots of personal choices that are viewed to be harmful to the general population. Smoking in public for example.Given that the impact of private schools is arguably that everyone who can't go gets a worse education, wouldn't it prevent real harm to most to limit the choice of a few or that the impact has to be otherwise mitigated by those that make that choice?

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#45

Post by whymauri » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:15 AM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #40

whymauri wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are a small group in the overall population but not at elite schools.

Poor kids at elite prep schools is what do you think 2% of their enrollment? So 2% is not small, fair enough. And private preparatory schools (much less elite prep schools) educate far less than 1% of the student population in the US. But let's go crazy over the top just to avoid nitpicking and claim it's as much as 1%. 1% * 2% = .02% Explain again why they need special consideration and are statistically legitimate…

Tony Jack makes this pretty clear. Schools are patting themselves on the back for increasing low income and minority enrollment without considering the fact that a large portion of these students is the "privileged poor". As a result, entire school-wide policies are being misguided and failing poor students who did not have an elite-level secondary education.

Back-of-the-envelope math (which I don't believe is correct) is not going to invalidate this. Why is this research important? Because it's bringing attention to how universities are failing truly disadvantaged students. Tony is currently shaping discourse about class-relations on campuses around the US, and I don't think the gravity of these discussions should be trivialized simply because these students do not represent a huge population of students. By encouraging schools to fully grasp the extent of the difficulties that doubly disadvantaged students have to overcome, I think we can start moving in a productive direction that empowers poor students beyond elite institutions.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#46

Post by kolbe » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 12:15 AM UTC

_bxg1 wrote: post #23

kolbe wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, just play whack-a-mole everything you don't like by making a law? As if just telling the government to outlaw something makes it go away with no other effects. Go ahead and apply some systems thinking to what the unintended consequences of that law would be. If you're really interested in solving problems, you cannot be that lazy and narrow minded.

There's no need to be rude. History has shown that the making of laws is the only way to curtail the negative side-effects of the free market. I am not a congressman or even a lawyer, so no, as any sane person could infer, I am not proposing that "Private schools are illegal" be written on a piece of paper and submitted to the legislature as a new bill. But I am proposing that weakening the circular mechanisms by whi…

Speaking of lazy things: your justification has entirely consisted of "history has shown" without even giving anecdotes, let alone data to support it.

I will do some actual work and delve into said history.

(1) Taxing the rich and corporations excessively -> offshoring income and sheltering assets.

(2) Prohibition -> mass gang violence, marginal reduction in alcohol consumption and a repeal of it.

(3) Recreational drug laws -> overcrowded prisons, broken families and generations of damage.

You cannot just make a law and not consider all of the consequences. Especially one as flippant, unresearched, vindictive and pointless as banning the ability of people to pay to add intellect to their own children.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#47

Post by Spooky23 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:05 AM UTC

torranceyang wrote: post #12

I really enjoyed this article. I haven't read Anthony Jack's book on the issue yet (I'll add it to my list!), but the framing of privileged poor and double disadvantaged was a new way for me to think about education inequality. The transition into an "elite" college, even as a middle class Asian-American male, was incredibly difficult on me mentally. My background in public school system in North Carolina (not in the…

I felt similarly wrt office hours. I never understood what I was supposed to do with office hours, and felt like an idiot when I tried used them.

My slightly younger cousins went to fancy private schools growing up, and were sort of trained how to work the system. They are still in communication with multiple professors 20 years later.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#48

Post by _bxg1 » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:12 AM UTC

kolbe wrote: post #46

_bxg1 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no need to be rude. History has shown that the making of laws is the only way to curtail the negative side-effects of the free market. I am not a congressman or even a lawyer, so no, as any sane person could infer, I am not proposing that "Private schools are illegal" be written on a piece of paper and submitted to the legislature as a new bill. But I am proposing that weakening the circular mechanisms by whi…

Speaking of lazy things: your justification has entirely consisted of "history has shown" without even giving anecdotes, let alone data to support it. I will do some actual work and delve into said history. (1) Taxing the rich and corporations excessively -> offshoring income and sheltering assets. (2) Prohibition -> mass gang violence, marginal reduction in alcohol consumption and a repeal of it. (3) Recreational dr…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

If the children of the wealthy were forced to remain in the public school system, then their parents would be forced to have a stake in it, and would therefore be forced to participate in its improvement - as voters, as donors, as volunteers - instead of jumping ship and leaving it to the people who don't have any choice. That would help intellect to be added to all children, not just the children of those who happen to have money.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#49

Post by XPKBandMaidCzun » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:14 AM UTC

> Poor kids who don't get a crack at high performing programs before college end up floundering.

The number one factor I look at in a kids future is parental relationship. How attuned is it? Is it stable, or are they on the brink of foreclosure and moving place to place? Does the child have emotional support? Are their parents substance abusers? Do they fight each other and scream every night? (It can be hard to do homework!)

When we bring "poor" and other characteristics into this - man, I feel we're missing an iceberg. We're just getting further from "fixing" anything, we don't even acknowledge the most impactful thing that effects people regardless of some characteristic that's so often a facade masking the family system.

Home life can be a matter of maternal / paternal deprivation or abandonment, or over-controlling, or abuse. On the other hand, it could be the gift of having chill parents, a stable base.

When college comes up, I worry. Commenters speak of colleges as if they're an annuity that pays out. Financial outcomes are almost always implied, if not explicitly mentioned.

If you're not getting a license in some way, maybe it's just not needed. I see names at prestigious law firms, hospitals, business, gov at all levels that have gone to schools I never heard of. I've read academic papers and I have to tell you, very seldom do I ever see an "elite school" (whatever that means?) behind it.

I'm not against any of these, it's more important for certain people's goals than others, but man does having a supportive family mean a lot.

Re: Privileged Poor vs. Doubly Disadvantaged at Elite Schools

#50

Post by jackcosgrove » Thu, Oct 31, 2019, 1:33 AM UTC

XPKBandMaidCzun wrote: post #49

> Poor kids who don't get a crack at high performing programs before college end up floundering. The number one factor I look at in a kids future is parental relationship. How attuned is it? Is it stable, or are they on the brink of foreclosure and moving place to place? Does the child have emotional support? Are their parents substance abusers? Do they fight each other and scream every night? (It can be hard to do h…

My parents did everything you were supposed to do. The family was intact, we kids always had to do our chores and homework, and all of us went to college. I can't fault them anything.

And yet... they still didn't know a lot. I remember in my sophomore year someone mentioned that they were trying to get an ibanking internship. I was like, "What is ibanking? A personal finance program for the Mac?" When I found out what it was, I was blown away. Like, doctors didn't make the most money? There was much to learn in the coming years...