Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter • Hacker News Board

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#41

Post by themgt » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:40 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #33

the_gastropod wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then the whole melting of sea ice thing. Sea ice is pretty much the whitest/most reflective surface on the planet. It then melts into the darkest/most absorbent surface on the planet. Are there any stabilizing forces we know about? I only ever hear about these types of positive feedback loops, and it scares the hell out of me.

Here are a few: increased temp > increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight increased co2 > increased tree growth increased co2 > increased algae, plankton growth to absorb co2... other marine animals will also feed on these, increasing their mass, and when they die, they'll sink to the bottom, where they'll mostly remain. increased co2 > increased diffusion into seawater.. clams, o…

Not only is CO2 continuing to rise, but it's rate of growth appears to be accelerating, from ~1.5ppm/year in the 80s/90s to 2ppm/year earlier this decade and now as much as 2.5-3ppm/year average now.

If this continues, we'll hit 420ppm within a couple years, 430ppm maybe 4 years after that, over 440ppm if not nearing 450ppm by the end of the 2020s with no slowdown in sight.

Truly, truly alarming.

http://mlg.eng.cam.ac.uk/carl/words/carbon.html

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#42

Post by taneq » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:42 AM UTC

blueyes wrote: post #3

I believe this same dynamic will apply to the oceans as they warm. They're like a can of Coke. Heat it up and the carbonation goes away. It's a horrifying positive feedback loop of global warming.

At least that'll help with ocean acidification, though, right?

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#43

Post by WhompingWindows » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:43 AM UTC

jsnider3 wrote: post #35

The world would be a much better place if Al Gore had won.

He did.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#44

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:47 AM UTC

pdonis wrote: post #39

rgbrenner wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a few: increased temp > increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight increased co2 > increased tree growth increased co2 > increased algae, plankton growth to absorb co2... other marine animals will also feed on these, increasing their mass, and when they die, they'll sink to the bottom, where they'll mostly remain. increased co2 > increased diffusion into seawater.. clams, o…

> increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight Also increased evaporation > increased latent heat transport to upper atmosphere where it can more easily escape to space. According to the numbers in Kiehl & Trenberth's global energy budget, total latent heat transport is about 80 W/m^2, which means a 5 percent increase in it would entirely cancel out the increased radiative forcing fro…

>> the fact that co2 in the atmosphere is growing indicates we're overwhelming these

>No, it doesn't, it just indicates different timescales for CO2 emissions vs. uptake.

It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here? If the time scale for emissions vs. uptake is different such that emissions are exceeding uptake capacity due to the different timescales, isn't the previous comment correct?

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#45

Post by lawnchair_larry » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:47 AM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #24

dev_dull wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yet the rich keep buying waterfront properties.

As far as I know in Florida they lobbied for the government to provide flood insurance because no private company would underwrite one.

This is the case pretty much everywhere, and is unrelated to sea level rise.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#46

Post by ouid » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:53 AM UTC

rgbrenner wrote: post #33

the_gastropod wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And then the whole melting of sea ice thing. Sea ice is pretty much the whitest/most reflective surface on the planet. It then melts into the darkest/most absorbent surface on the planet. Are there any stabilizing forces we know about? I only ever hear about these types of positive feedback loops, and it scares the hell out of me.

Here are a few: increased temp > increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight increased co2 > increased tree growth increased co2 > increased algae, plankton growth to absorb co2... other marine animals will also feed on these, increasing their mass, and when they die, they'll sink to the bottom, where they'll mostly remain. increased co2 > increased diffusion into seawater.. clams, o…

microplastics aggregate in longer lived predators organisms, killing sharks before plankton. Lowering the maximum size of animal paradoxically increases total biomass, though it's unclear by how much, and it's a pretty unstable proposition at its core what happens to humans in a mass extinction of large organisms.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#47

Post by TheSpiceIsLife » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 1:59 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #16

favorited wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Insane amounts of carbon in the frozen soil. Once thawed, soil microbes transform it into carbon dioxide and methane.

Hydrocarbons, not carbon. Basically plants when they rot emit methane AKA natural gas.

>> soil microbes transform it into carbon dioxide and methane

> rot

That's what the previous comment just said.

Decomposition of plant matter occurs in many stages. It begins with leaching by water; the most easily lost and soluble carbon compounds are liberated in this process. Another early process is physical breakup or fragmentation of the plant material into smaller bits which have greater surface area for microbial colonization and attack. In smaller dead plants, this process is largely carried out by the soil invertebrate fauna, whereas in the larger plants, primarily parasitic life-forms such as insects and fungi play a major breakdown role and are not assisted by numerous detritivore species.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition#Plant_decomposit...

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#48

Post by baroffoos » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 2:16 AM UTC

amaranth wrote: post #23

SlowRobotAhead wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't Obama just spend 15million for an on-beach estate? (EDIT: Apparently sale is not finalized)

It's a nice looking place and it'll be okay for the rest of his life (and probably his kids if they keep it). After that things get more worrying.

There are actually maps which show where the water levels will be at each year. My great grandma's house was recently sold for over $1m and only has 70 years before it will be permanently underwater and likely destroyed by 50 years if there is any heavy rainfall.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#49

Post by pdonis » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 2:36 AM UTC

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #44

pdonis wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> increased evaporation > increased cloud coverage which reflects more sunlight Also increased evaporation > increased latent heat transport to upper atmosphere where it can more easily escape to space. According to the numbers in Kiehl & Trenberth's global energy budget, total latent heat transport is about 80 W/m^2, which means a 5 percent increase in it would entirely cancel out the increased radiative forcing fro…

>> the fact that co2 in the atmosphere is growing indicates we're overwhelming these >No, it doesn't, it just indicates different timescales for CO2 emissions vs. uptake. It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here? If the time scale for emissions vs. uptake is different such that emissions are exceeding uptake capacity due to the different timescales, isn't the previous comment correct?

> It's not clear to me what the distinction is you're trying to make here?

If the uptake timescale is longer, uptake will catch up to emissions over time (I realize I didn't make that sufficiently clear in my previous post), so CO2 growth does not indicate that uptake has reached "maximum", which is what the post I responded to was claiming.

Re: Climate change has turned permafrost into a carbon emitter

#50

Post by chimi » Thu, Oct 24, 2019, 2:49 AM UTC

the_gastropod wrote: post #8

blueyes wrote: post #3

I believe this same dynamic will apply to the oceans as they warm. They're like a can of Coke. Heat it up and the carbonation goes away. It's a horrifying positive feedback loop of global warming.

And then the whole melting of sea ice thing. Sea ice is pretty much the whitest/most reflective surface on the planet. It then melts into the darkest/most absorbent surface on the planet. Are there any stabilizing forces we know about? I only ever hear about these types of positive feedback loops, and it scares the hell out of me.

Global Dimming is caused by pollution emitted into the air. This has caused a decline in the Pan Evaporation rate. Meaning, less water is evaporating now than decades prior.

My concern is, if we stop polluting the environment and the global dimming is stopped, then climate change will get much worse.

Global Dimming might explain why the climate hasn't changed as much as some would expect.