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On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

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Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#41

Post by automathematics »

Just try and recognize you're not the only person on the internet. Do right by them, and if you fuck up, apologize and move on.

If you're getting angry that you (might) upset someone else you need to take a hard look in the mirror. Not only because you're immediately acting like their feelings don't matter because you didn't MEAN to offend them. But also, why don't you have a hobby? If you do, apologize to the person you upset and move on and reclaim that time to do something productive.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#42

Post by kelnos »

Spivak wrote: post #15
dlivingston wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority of comments have no qualms with respecting one's mode of self-identification, but rather, with the method by which S.E. has chosen to approach it. In other words, the commenters have an issue with the poor execution of a noble idea .

Genuinely, what's the poor execution? They seem to have basically codified "use someone's stated pronouns" with an awareness of the common ways people try to get around it. It seems like anyone who respects how other people identify will have hard time running up against this policy.

The policy assumes that everyone will act in good faith, or will be explicit about acting in bad faith. That's a terrible assumption.

For example: if I put an unfamiliar pronoun in my profile, and someone sees it, are they obligated to refer to me that way? What if I'm just trolling? Should people be required to google my preferred pronoun and then make a value judgment on whether I'm acting in good or bad faith?

If they err on the side of assuming good faith, and I'm really just trolling, then we get an answer for all to see that includes someone falling for a troll, which reduces the value of that answer. It also normalizes trollish behavior, which is bad.

If they believe I'm acting in bad faith, and they're wrong, they could get banned from the site, which is an overreaction to what I'd expect will be a common, innocent mistake.

And that's just one example; there are plenty more in the comments.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#43

Post by Excel_Wizard »

It's really strange to me that a trans (or whatever) person would be offended at being called a standard pronoun. Seems like an easy mistake to make.

I feel like the idea of choosing your own pronoun is fine and happy within an insular LGBTQ+ forum or venue. When it tries to take over the language everyone else uses, it's gonna do more harm than good. People that push it just seem to be selfish to me.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#44

Post by Sohcahtoa82 »

crimsonalucard wrote: post #14
RankingMember wrote: post #5

I think the blowback is really just about cognitive load. There's only so much you can expend on social mores before the actual subject you're discussing gets eclipsed. Everyone deserves equal respect, but I understand that when I'm not in the majority in a situation that my perspectives/language may be alien to some of those in the majority- I don't hold it against them unless there is explicit hostility. I find mys…

I highly disagree. It isn't about cognitive overload. It is about sexism. People aren't gender neutral and don't want to be referred to by an offensive gender neutral pronoun when their gender is anything but gender neutral. It is absurd and insensitive to refer to things as neutral when they have a gender For example my gender is zygort bilop and the pronoun is zula. Referring to me as gender neutral is the ultimate…

sigh

Imagine how much more productive conversations about gender identity and pronouns could be if we didn't have trolls.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#45

Post by mcphage »

atonse wrote: post #17

Obligatory need to say: I strongly believe in a live-and-let-live idea so yes, everyone should be treated fairly and with decency. Everyone. The odd thing here is that in most cases, rules regarding speech revolve around what _not_ to say. (cursing, hate speech, attacks, etc). But in this case, these kinds of things feel like they belong more as a list of good manners. But in this case, you aren't being told "this is…

> So now are people supposed to check each profile before responding?

That question is specifically asked—and answered—in the linked article; the answer is no.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#46

Post by atonse »

peterangular wrote: post #38
tstrimple wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it's worth, I've only ever encountered people getting "deeply offended" over intentional misrepresentation of gender. I hear far more people complaining about people being upset about being misgendered than people actually upset about being misgendered. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, I'm just saying that in my experience the counter-"outrage culture" in many cases blows things way more out of proportion t…

Anecdotal, but I have definitely seen people be hurt when it's not intentional... and honestly, I feel for them. I can't truly relate but I can be empathetic. Folks bug me sometimes when they assume in conversation that I'm close to my family (because most people are). In reality I come from an abusive family and tend to not want to talk/think about them. I understand that it's a completely different thing, but I'm u…

Right but intention is everything.

There's a difference between someone who knows you don't have a good relationship with your family and then really just being in-your-face about it (that's intentionally making you feel bad about your family), vs someone who doesn't know.

Yes you feel bad in both cases, but you probably feel much worse when it's an intentional thing.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#47

Post by peterangular »

atonse wrote: post #46
peterangular wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal, but I have definitely seen people be hurt when it's not intentional... and honestly, I feel for them. I can't truly relate but I can be empathetic. Folks bug me sometimes when they assume in conversation that I'm close to my family (because most people are). In reality I come from an abusive family and tend to not want to talk/think about them. I understand that it's a completely different thing, but I'm u…

Right but intention is everything. There's a difference between someone who knows you don't have a good relationship with your family and then really just being in-your-face about it (that's intentionally making you feel bad about your family), vs someone who doesn't know. Yes you feel bad in both cases, but you probably feel much worse when it's an intentional thing.

> Yes you feel bad in both cases, but you probably feel much worse when it's an intentional thing.

Of course. I don't want to make people feel bad regardless of intention so my personal SOP is to try not to hurt people in regards to gendered language by keeping it as neutral as possible, and that's pretty easy when it's typed out IMO.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#48

Post by growse »

progfix wrote: post #28

I use whatever pronoun I see fit and if I offend someone by using the wrong pronoun I will apology to that person and move on.

"I'll wave my fists wherever I see fit and if I end up hurting someone by punching them I'll apologise to that person and move on."

Maybe stop waving your fists about?

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#49

Post by hypnagogicjerk »

Excel_Wizard wrote: post #43

It's really strange to me that a trans (or whatever) person would be offended at being called a standard pronoun. Seems like an easy mistake to make. I feel like the idea of choosing your own pronoun is fine and happy within an insular LGBTQ+ forum or venue. When it tries to take over the language everyone else uses, it's gonna do more harm than good. People that push it just seem to be selfish to me.

Some people do deliberately (misgender) to antagonize a person. Particularly people who feel their culture is being redefined without them.

By the way, EVERY trans person I know has been EXCEEDINGLY kind and understanding when I've made a mistake with their gender. Now, if I don't know it already, I ask what they prefer to be called the same way I would ask how to properly pronounce someone's name. "Pardon me, what are your pronouns?"

If they've stated what their pronouns are then use them with the same respect you would muster to call someone by their proper name and pronunciation and spelling. The value here is no different, just more broadly applied then you're perhaps used to.

If you deliberately misgender someone (show me a nerd hasn't had this or some similar slur used against them) then you're just a jerk and should be reprimanded.

As an aside, to all the people complaining about non-English speakers doing enough work already participating in our idiom: 1) proper use of pronouns is essential to speaking English with or without neopronouns. 2) Many languages and cultures require VERY refined and strict understanding of a persons A) Age, B) Marital status, C) Gender and especially D) Social status before even beginning to address them.

Re: On the way to being the most downvoted post ever on StackOverflow:Meta

#50

Post by hypnagogicjerk »

mattnewport wrote: post #39
tstrimple wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way? I think it only supports my claims. How much visible outrage was there from people being misgendered? Yet there is a thread full of people complaining about having to adjust their language. It seems to me there is way more people upset about changing language than were upset about being misgendered. Unless there is some meta thread you can point me to which is full of people complaining about being misge…

The visible outrage is not from people "complaining about people being upset about being misgendered", it is from people complaining about an actual policy change introducing compelled speech. If people complaining about being misgendered is as rare as you suggest then why does stack exchange feel the need to push through such a controversial policy change?

The policy is about recommending polite speech in a public forum where rules to this effect have been enforced for a long time. And it's articulating what that means to people who don't understand what pronouns are for.

That some people may use a pronoun other than the one on their birth certificate is the way things are going in the modern world, so polite use of the language must take this into consideration.

I have living aunts and uncles and grandparents who still think it's okay to refer to dark skinned persons, and with all politeness, as "Negro." I take it on to school them and, yes, compel them to use polite and accepted speech.

By the way, there is no society or culture without compelled and enforced norms, which by the way are what's under debate underneath all this.

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