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Maturity

about.gitlab.com

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Re: Maturity

#41

Post by pritianka »

colechristensen wrote: post #36
sytse wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is still our policy but we recently added something to https://about.gitlab.com/company/strategy/#breadth-over-dept... that might be relevant: "So breadth over depth is the strategy for GitLab the company. GitLab the project should have depth in every category it offers. It will take a few years to become best in class in a certain space because we depend on users contributing back, and we publish that journey o…

My first experience with GitLab, several years ago, felt like it needed this policy. I actively didn't like it, and did not see the point or added value. Now my experience is exactly the opposite. I like all of the things GitLab does, it is an obvious and significant value add but ... when I have experimented with it in a home lab and elsewhere there were several things which gave me pause, and I've seen the same exp…

Hi there! I hear what you are saying especially if you are considering recommending the full single application. As our maturity model shares, we are better at some stages than others. So I would share parts of the product that really work for you all the time and let people experience for themselves.

Re: Maturity

#42

Post by pritianka »

lucasmullens wrote: post #13
ekianjo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why NPS is being used everywhere these days. Basically it makes all levels of "bad" just as bad as each other. What's so hard about using distributions?

Distributions are harder to track over time. Coming up with a single metric is really helpful for A/B tests and seeing how your product changes over time.

Agree. It's about consistency over time (and now across companies and products with the adoption) vs perfect.

Re: Maturity

#43

Post by pritianka »

buildzr wrote: post #38
bureaucrat wrote: post #31

Gitlab is slow. It’s so unbearably slow, even their official server. Guys, why should a static content load after page loading is done? Page loading done, and the code still loads with a loading circle. Why? Just compare it with github. Average 500ms makes a huge difference. Also gitlab UI is a huge mess. It got all the features, sure. But the UI is not that user friendly. Don’t use flat the wrong way. Use contrasts…

> even their official server. Annecdata, but to me it seems more like their official server is the slow part, I run my own instance and it seems pretty snappy.

From what I have heard from users and customers, the self-hosted folks are indeed super duper happy. The nice thing about the self-hosted option is that regardless of how open an employer company maybe about sending data places, devs can try out the product. That's led to our super awesome enterprise adoption to some degree (IMHO).

Re: Maturity

#44

Post by joshlambert »

bureaucrat wrote: post #31

Gitlab is slow. It’s so unbearably slow, even their official server. Guys, why should a static content load after page loading is done? Page loading done, and the code still loads with a loading circle. Why? Just compare it with github. Average 500ms makes a huge difference. Also gitlab UI is a huge mess. It got all the features, sure. But the UI is not that user friendly. Don’t use flat the wrong way. Use contrasts…

Thank you for the feedback. We aren't happy with performance and we are working hard to improve it. We have two major projects under way, switching to Puma (https://docs.gitlab.com/omnibus/settings/puma.html) as well as reducing the overall memory consumption of GitLab (https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/engineering/development/en...).

You can follow along on some of the progress we are making in each release post in the "Performance Improvements" section. For 12.2 you can see we had 58 MR's related to performance: https://gitlab.com/groups/gitlab-org/-/merge_requests?scope=....

On the UX front, two efforts under way are establishing experience baselines (https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/engineering/ux/experience-...) as well as a common design system (https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/engineering/ux/pajamas-des...). Hopefully these efforts allow us to look at our UX holistically, and to focus on making high quality components that are used throughout the product.

Again thanks for the feedback, and hopefully we will have some more concrete improvements here soon.

Re: Maturity

#45

Post by bureaucrat »

joshlambert wrote: post #44
bureaucrat wrote: post #31

Gitlab is slow. It’s so unbearably slow, even their official server. Guys, why should a static content load after page loading is done? Page loading done, and the code still loads with a loading circle. Why? Just compare it with github. Average 500ms makes a huge difference. Also gitlab UI is a huge mess. It got all the features, sure. But the UI is not that user friendly. Don’t use flat the wrong way. Use contrasts…

Thank you for the feedback. We aren't happy with performance and we are working hard to improve it. We have two major projects under way, switching to Puma ( https://docs.gitlab.com/omnibus/settings/puma.html ) as well as reducing the overall memory consumption of GitLab ( https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/engineering/development/en... ). You can follow along on some of the progress we are making in each release post…

With those harsh comments being said, I use self hosted gitlab and I am thrilled to see your product improve.

Keep up the good work.

Re: Maturity

#46

Post by colechristensen »

pritianka wrote: post #41
colechristensen wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My first experience with GitLab, several years ago, felt like it needed this policy. I actively didn't like it, and did not see the point or added value. Now my experience is exactly the opposite. I like all of the things GitLab does, it is an obvious and significant value add but ... when I have experimented with it in a home lab and elsewhere there were several things which gave me pause, and I've seen the same exp…

Hi there! I hear what you are saying especially if you are considering recommending the full single application. As our maturity model shares, we are better at some stages than others. So I would share parts of the product that really work for you all the time and let people experience for themselves.

If I could have GitLab Mature Edition that was restricted to the high quality more complete parts, it would go a long way. Otherwise shipping a product where I have to sell the good parts and hand-wave the rest as incomplete -- it makes the product much less appealing.

Re: Maturity

#47

Post by KaoruAoiShiho »

sytse wrote: post #17
KaoruAoiShiho wrote: post #8

I was sucked in by Gitlab's feature list and marketing. But holy shit so many things are half assed and so many features are buggy and broken. Like their wikis would sometimes just straight up delete text and their webhooks would break images. I started a bunch of issues but they really have no chance of getting fixed anytime soon. Just shows how different your impression of something is after actually using it.

The wiki is GitLab should not delete text, please file a bug if you had dataloss. The current state of the wiki isn't great but we're also not seeing a lot of people care about it. Many people are switching to static websites. Therefore we're not investing to get the wiki better than the current state of a half circle. BTW We've recently measured experience baselines in GitLab and we agree we still have a lot of work…

A wiki's not the same usecase as static site, a static site is for marketing and wikis are for project management. I mean maybe people would use it if it weren't crappy? I would've been happier if the wiki didn't exist and I didn't invest time into wrangling it. ATM it's just a frustration.

It's not dataloss but it deletes text in the same line as wiki internal links. And what kind of wiki doesn't use lots of internal links. https://gitlab.com/gitlab-org/gitlab-ce/issues/67132 This basically makes the wiki unusable but it's marked as "backlog".

If you really do feel this way about the wiki then it should be clearly marked in your marketing. I read about your "integrated devops experience" and was onboard, but if your intent is as you say then you need to put parentheses next to the wiki feature item list that says "this is crap and we intend for it to stay crap" and we'll know to value it appropriately when choosing a provider.

Re: Maturity

#48

Post by Scarbutt »

pritianka wrote: post #39
mikepurvis wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps an argument for focusing on doing a few things well? I work for a GitLab shop, but we don't use the bugtracker (Jira) or wiki (Confluence), we mostly don't use the CI (Jenkins is just more flexible), and we definitely don't use the container stuff. We currently do use the review workflow but at various points have considered moving to a different tool for that as well. So yeah, we would have been fine with a…

Hi there! Just wanted to add my two cents here. Just like you choose to use SCM and workflow review, we have a lot of other users and customers utilizing different permutations and combinations of the various stages. Over time, various stages all move toward maturity, some faster than others. I know this is a different model than most software companies and it has its downsides. But the net positive is that we are ab…

But the net positive is that we are able to provide an increasingly unified experience for DevOps.

The point of the GP and others where that as of now there is nothing positive about the "unified experience for DevOps", it is very buggy and lacking, maybe someday.

Re: Maturity

#49

Post by joshlambert »

sytse wrote: post #23
atsaloli wrote: post #6

> Lovable: Provides an elevated user experience that customers love as measured by NPS. NPS = Net Promoter Score https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Net_Promoter

Correct, to be specific we measure PNPS https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/product/metrics/#paid-net-... We'll try to link from the legend but since it is automatically generated this is hard.

Merge request to link to our definition of PNPS: https://gitlab.com/gitlab-com/www-gitlab-com/merge_requests/.... Should be merged momentarily.

Re: Maturity

#50

Post by joshlambert »

bureaucrat wrote: post #45
joshlambert wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for the feedback. We aren't happy with performance and we are working hard to improve it. We have two major projects under way, switching to Puma ( https://docs.gitlab.com/omnibus/settings/puma.html ) as well as reducing the overall memory consumption of GitLab ( https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/engineering/development/en... ). You can follow along on some of the progress we are making in each release post…

With those harsh comments being said, I use self hosted gitlab and I am thrilled to see your product improve. Keep up the good work.

Thanks, and please keep up the feedback. =)
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