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Burnout is real – how to avoid it

atlassian.com

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Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#41

Post by squeaky-clean »

vfc1 wrote: post #17
dominotw wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a clueless middle manager who has never coded the simplest of programs in his/her life. I've never had manager who hasn't coded ever in his life. WhatI had most of the time was a manager who hasn't coded in a longtime.

I've had both, and I don't know what is worst to tell you the truth. The ones who have coded a long time ago think that their experience in another language/ecosystem still allows them to estimate tasks in a completely different environment, when in fact it doesn't. The non-technical manager will focus more on the business side and will be easier to manage in many situations, but the problem is that that type fo mana…

I've had both as well as in my opinion the worst: The manager who pretends they can code and knows just enough to be able to trick HR and other managers.

It's only happened to me once, but the guy was pretending to be a past Java expert and didn't know the difference between Java and Javascript. I don't mean we grilled him on the differences in syntax. I mean in conversation he would use "java-script" to mean a Java source file, and said he had experience with Java frameworks like jQuery and Angular. Don't know how he expected to fool any developers, but he actually kept the job longer than I expected, even with people calling him out as fake.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#42

Post by Zeebrommer »

hysan wrote: post #4

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. I've found…

>all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your lack of self-management is causing your burnout.

Yes, this! My company seems to be halfway there: acknowledging that burnout is a problem, but then turning that into helpful advice (eat healthy, take breaks, go work out, etc) that is focused on the individual, ignoring cultural factors and the total amount of work that gets taken on and needs to be done by X people in Y time.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#43

Post by altras »

I've battled severe burnout after my first startup :( Almost 8 years down the road and numerous other startup fails now I believe teams can do a better job with burnout symptoms within colleagues [1]. Please be mindful for your buddies. They may not have the energy to pull out themselves \/

[1] https://medium.com/camplight/what-can-we-do-to-prevent-teams...

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#44

Post by dredmorbius »

dominotw wrote: post #9
agloeregrets wrote: post #6

What is funny about this is that Atlasssian’s Jira product is designed for two week “sprints”, a term referring to the idea of running quickly at a rate above a sustainable pace with no intent to keep running after the end. But these sprints normally are done repeatedly with no actual stop or sight of a finish line. Employees just churn through tickets with no designed breathing room or planned downtime. Jira is prob…

> “sprints”, a term referring to the idea of running quickly at a rate above a sustainable pace why would it it be "above sustainable pace".

What can be sustained for a short effort is not sustainable over a longer haul.

High-intensity long-haul efforts can require months of recovery, or be permanently crippling.

The 100m world record is 9.58s. The world-record marathon pace, 17.2s/100m. The Race Across America 3,000 mile bike race record, a sustained speed of 12.57 mph, or 17.8s/100m.

The specific physiological mechanisms for physical and mental exhaustion differ, but the general principles are similar: metabolites, waste products, side-effects, and damage accumulate. Absent a period of rest and recovery, these will eventually prove damaging.

In sport training, there is a carefully calibrated set of activities and rest and recovery, ranging from in a given motion (power and recovery stroke in running, cycling, swimming, rowing, or virtually any other action), to exercises, efforts, sets, workouts, seasonal, and lifetime scheduling.

Speed, skill, and muscle aren't created on the track, in the pool, on the road or trail, or at the gym, they're created in bed, when you're asleep, during recovery, given adequate nutrition. Training is stress, but a stress that's calibrated to trigger a conditioning response.

If you don't get rest, you'll simply break down.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#45

Post by dredmorbius »

Where and how specifically does Jira build in stress and burnout metrics and avoidance mechanisms into its tools and techniques?

And when is it going to mandate a change of langauge in Scrum from "sprint" to some word vastly more reasonable in designating a staged, sustainable, work effort?

The English language is in dire need of an idiom connoting the fox advising the henhouse. This post lacks all credibility.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#46

Post by bitL »

dominotw wrote: post #28
bitL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a manager with a PhD who insisted on never writing multi-threaded applications because when he tried he failed and considered them dangerous. I routinely wrote apps using 10,000+ threads before. Now he is a head of development of some company. Real life is a comedy.

> never writing multi-threaded applications Did he suggest an alternative ?

Outside of "use something that is not multi-threaded" not.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#47

Post by hysan »

taneq wrote: post #24
hysan wrote: post #4

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. I've found…

> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no's" It's up to you to ensure that your "no's" can't be ignored. Really what shy programmers need is confidence and healthy boundaries.

And if you're not a shy programmer who has shown schedules, estimates, timelines, and are also trying to prevent those you manage/mentor from being burntout? Or what if your direct manager actually agrees with you! But your combined arguments are being shot down for reasons of growth, culture, or they decide to change the metrics so when you do say no, your performance plummets and they now have more power in conversations? Yes, signs of a toxic culture. No, you cannot always just leave.

It's unsurprising to see comments that revert to pinning the blame back on the employee. That's how the narrative has been formed and controlled. It's also a product of the "self-made person" idea where you ultimately have all the control over where you end up in life.

As a side note - not everyone is speaking from the position of being a programmer. Burnout is affecting many other careers. This forum just happens to be tech centric, but I do hope that stereotypes and assumptions can be minimized.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#48

Post by shams93 »

Zeebrommer wrote: post #42
hysan wrote: post #4

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. I've found…

>all of the language in this article (until #8) is centered around you. You are supposed to take full responsibility for burnout. It is your choice. Your lack of self-management is causing your burnout. Yes, this! My company seems to be halfway there: acknowledging that burnout is a problem, but then turning that into helpful advice (eat healthy, take breaks, go work out, etc) that is focused on the individual, ignor…

Yeah if you're asking people to do 20 hours work for 8 hours pay no amount of healthy advice can undo the damage done by a culture of unpaid triple time as the norm. After the 2008 downturn it got very easy to find labor and thus you could really over work people to a brutal level and not care. Now that the economy is slowing down you can expect a lot of employers to become more abusive as employees become a dime a dozen.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#49

Post by squeaky-clean »

taneq wrote: post #24
hysan wrote: post #4

Good compilation of the advice you often read about on the internet. However, a big factor in all of the solutions is having the support of the entire org/company. If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no"s, gives you zero control over what is on your plate, and pressures you culturally, then to take back control, you are stuck fighting another battle on top of burnout. I've found…

> If your company doesn't believe that burnout is an issue and ignores your "no's" It's up to you to ensure that your "no's" can't be ignored. Really what shy programmers need is confidence and healthy boundaries.

While true, this doesn't have to actually mean being more assertive at your job. I worked at a place where I constantly had to be very up front about my boundaries and work limits. We would plan something, say some certain things can't be done for 2 weeks, and then two days later someone would come back and be like "So... about those tickets, could we actually squeeze them in this week? As well as all the other tickets?"

I did get better at saying no and establishing my boundaries. But that itself is still exhausting. The best move I made was recognizing the culture there had shit respect for developer boundaries and switching to a company that does.

There are places and people that will take advantage of the fact that many developers do not want to say no. Do get better at saying no. But also get away from those people.

Re: Burnout is real – how to avoid it

#50

Post by [deleted] »

dredmorbius wrote: post #38
squeaky-clean wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sprints also have a specific meaning in Agile/Scrum vocabulary which should be pretty common around here. That's like suggesting github promotes physically aggressive behavior because it's centered around pushing. Nothing about a sprint in Scrum terminology is meant mean an unsustainable pace.

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said. Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"' 'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected. 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.' -- L. Carroll

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