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Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

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Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#41

Post by davidj »

hartror wrote: post #35
davidj wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically the first paper states, from what I can understand, "Some people are born with a genetic defect in their cells, specifically in the mitochondria part of the cell. When these people are injected with Thimerosal, they get autism. Others don't." My proposed solution: Check to see if the kid has this genetic defect, and if so, don't inject them with mercury, inject them with the mercury free vaccine and they wi…

Also when Thimerosal was removed from most of the vaccines in 2001 it had no affect on Autism rates. This was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for that hypothesis, yet the meme continues.

Thimerosal may have been removed from vaccines in 2001/2003, but because it was used as a preservative, vaccines made before then were not taken off the shelf and recalled and still used! According to this link below some up until 2007. Then, the swine flu had Thimerosal which was given to children as well.

"One point that was repeatedly stated was that except for the flu shot, all vaccines that have been offered to parents since 2003 have been thimerosal free. This is not the case.

Because parents in the autism community are very concerned about the prospect of their children getting mercury in their vaccines, many of them routinely ask to see the packaging before their child gets a shot. What some parents are finding is that vaccines with the full 25 micrograms of mercury are still being distributed in doctors offices, some with an expiration date of 2007."

http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.com/2005/08/still-finding...

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#42

Post by electromagnetic »

davidj wrote: post #12

Vaccines do cause autism. Here is a peer reviewed paper in the journal of Toxicological and Environmental Chemistry, the abstract: Mitochondrial dysfunction, impaired oxidative-reduction activity, degeneration, and death in human neuronal and fetal cells induced by low-level exposure to thimerosal and other metal compounds Authors: D. A. Geiera; P. G. Kingb; M. R. Geierc Abstract Thimerosal (ethylmercurithiosalicylic…

Well your latter link is a study based on primates, to which diseases and vaccines have markedly different reactions, so without further information is wholly irrelevant to the debate. Especially considering the fact that measles testing on Rhesus Macaques (IIRC the most accurate measure for measles to humans) has to use specially selected strains or all data is irrelevant due to the monkeys immune system responding wholly different from the human immune system. What assurances are there that the test on these vaccines was even controlled in such a way to ensure the right strains of vaccines were used.

http://www.montrealgazette.com/story_print.html?id=2408084&#...

So riddle me this. Why did a peer reviewed Polish Study find that the MMR vaccine actually showed decreased autism rates over a standard measles vaccination, when the anti-vaccination groups constantly talk about 'vaccine overload'. A triple vaccine should seriously be harder on the system than a single, so why is the evidence suggesting it is either wholly irrelevant or actually beneficial by decreasing autism rates?

Autism-vaccination link researches have the god awful stench that cold fusion and perpetual motion physicists had several decades ago. The original evidence was wholly and undeniably fabricated, but you're posting links to articles that tout they're proving Wakefield right... I'm sorry but all they're showing is that they're producing results that show an unintentional bias because they obviously care that they prove Wakefield right.

You don't have good science until a scientist does it that is happy whether or not he is right or wrong. The anti-vaccination scientists are consistently producing bad science and are consistently bad scientists.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#43

Post by hartror »

davidj wrote: post #41
hartror wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also when Thimerosal was removed from most of the vaccines in 2001 it had no affect on Autism rates. This was pretty much the last nail in the coffin for that hypothesis, yet the meme continues.

Thimerosal may have been removed from vaccines in 2001/2003, but because it was used as a preservative, vaccines made before then were not taken off the shelf and recalled and still used! According to this link below some up until 2007. Then, the swine flu had Thimerosal which was given to children as well. "One point that was repeatedly stated was that except for the flu shot, all vaccines that have been offered to…

So assuming that is relevant (I don't doubt some doctor still had medicines on the shelf in 2005 (date on post) from 2001 but at what rates your comment does not state) around now we should be already seeing a large drop in autism rates since the shelf life of the older medicines has expired? As there has not been a corresponding drop at all I hold that the autism caused by mercury in vaccines lobby is barking up the wrong tree.

Edit. didn't downvote you btw, did up vote after the downvote as your comment is fair and contributes to the debate. :(

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#44

Post by ugh »

Mz wrote: post #31
johngalt wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not hostile to opposing viewpoints. Truthfully I don't understand. Now you've mentioned it I'm trying to think of a third option would be something along the lines of "Vaccines could be applied differently than they are today". I haven't seen any evidence that supports that theory, but primarily I'm focused on people the refuse to vaccinate their kids at all. Not the ones that advocate different methods of vaccin…

3. They do enormous amounts of research and are very devoted parents who keep their kids healthy without prescription drugs or vaccines. They use diet, lifestyle changes and herbs/supplements (which are very respected in some "traditional" medicines) in place of what conventional/modern doctors would do to kids. I have a form of cystic fibrosis (as does my 23 year old son). I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs…

You are not really presenting any evidence, especially evidence particular to vaccines and autism. It doesn’t matter how nice and great the alternative health board is if they can’t muster satisfactory evidence.

I would also think that if what you say is indeed true, many scientists would be very interested in your case.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#45

Post by Mz »

hartror wrote: post #40
Mz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. They do enormous amounts of research and are very devoted parents who keep their kids healthy without prescription drugs or vaccines. They use diet, lifestyle changes and herbs/supplements (which are very respected in some "traditional" medicines) in place of what conventional/modern doctors would do to kids. I have a form of cystic fibrosis (as does my 23 year old son). I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs…

Wow downvotes? I don't agree with most of this position but this viewpoint is while an anecdote and not based solidly in science is valid. Certainly a healthy balanced diet creates a healthier body and something everyone should implement whether they are managing a chronic illness or not. I don't agree with not vaccinating as a general rule, but I am not overly familiar with cystic fibrosis so I am not aware of what…

Could you describe why you chose not to vaccinate for anything?

:-) Wildly inaccurate assumption. :-)

My oldest son is fully vaccinated. I was diagnosed with CF in May 2001, just before I turned 36. My oldest son was diagnosed the following month, shortly after turning 14. (He was born the day after my 22nd birthday. My youngest was born on my 5th wedding anniversary. When I was married, I went around telling everyone my husband was too cheap to buy me anything. )

When I was first diagnosed, it was after having been bedridden for 3 1/2 months, after 10 weeks of sinusitis turned to pneumonia. The first few years, I got my flu shot every year. My then teenaged son refused his and was very adamant that he would rather have the flu than the flu shot. I was very slow to join the anti-vax crowd and I don't promote it as a position. But I did eventually stop getting my annual flu shot and my youngest son never got the last of his vaccinations. The reason I stopped getting my vaccinations: Absolutely everyone (including my oldest son) who was helping me get well when most of the wold insisted it couldn't be done were strongly anti-vax. No on tried to talk me out of it. But I eventually decided to skip the shot and see if I did better. I haven't gone back.

As for doctors over-prescribing medicine: I think that bias is built in to the way they are compensated. Drugs offer short-term gains with long-term consequences. The doctors can claim credit for the short-term gains while distancing themselves from the long-term negative consequences and not really owning that -- even though it isn't at all secret and everyone in the CF community refers to drug side effects as "a necessary evil". If you are basically healthy, you can do this to yourself occasionally and it isn't necessarily a big deal. But if you have a chronic, deadly condition, it helps to put you in the grave and you cannot prove it. All the experts blame your genes, there aren't really big samples of groups of people successfully doing something else (just a few "anecdotal"/lone nutcases like me), and doing nothing (which is what people seem to think I am doing) does in fact kill you if you have CF.

As for diet and lifestyle: Life is chemistry. Everything you eat, drink or touch impacts your body chemistry to some small degree. If you are willing to do enough research and make enough changes, the chemical impact is greater than what drugs do to the body. But it's hard to sell people on that.

Thanks for your reply.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#46

Post by brudgers »

johngalt wrote: post #23

I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd. I see no possible way for what they espouse to be morally responsible. Without vaccines the mortality rate of children to these diseases would be higher than the total rate of autism. This means that you would have more kids die than get autism even if every case of autism was directly caused by a vaccine. This leaves us with two options for the beliefs of the anti-vaccinati…

>"I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd."

While I don't agree with the factual basis on which they are making their decision, it is entirely rational given their belief.

MMR are [edit] usually temporary and can typically be effectively treated by the medical systems of industrialized nations, whereas autism is permanent and generally untreatable.

It is analogous to purchasing a large heavy vehicle (e.g. SUV) based on the superior crash protection it provides passengers and despite the increased risk to other vehicles in a collision and the potential for increased long term environmental degradation.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#47

Post by Mz »

ugh wrote: post #44
Mz wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3. They do enormous amounts of research and are very devoted parents who keep their kids healthy without prescription drugs or vaccines. They use diet, lifestyle changes and herbs/supplements (which are very respected in some "traditional" medicines) in place of what conventional/modern doctors would do to kids. I have a form of cystic fibrosis (as does my 23 year old son). I have gotten off 8 or 9 prescription drugs…

You are not really presenting any evidence, especially evidence particular to vaccines and autism. It doesn’t matter how nice and great the alternative health board is if they can’t muster satisfactory evidence. I would also think that if what you say is indeed true, many scientists would be very interested in your case.

You are not really presenting any evidence, especially evidence particular to vaccines and autism. It doesn’t matter how nice and great the alternative health board is if they can’t muster satisfactory evidence.

I was not offering to give evidence particular to vaccines and autism. I don't even believe that vaccines directly and solely cause autism. (I do believe they are a contributing factor but I think it's more complicated than the two sides want to make it out to be.) I was only suggesting that the two possible characterizations being listed for parents who are anti-vax were not the only two possibilities.

I would also think that if what you say is indeed true, many scientists would be very interested in your case.

You would think so. But my doctor's reaction to me getting healthier was to schedule me with fewer and fewer appointments on the theory that I didn't really need his attention and other patients needed him more, while expressing zero interest in how I was getting well, even though he was clear it was something I was doing, not something he was doing. (This is another reason I haven't seen a doctor recently: My experience is doctors don't really want to hear what I have to say and the only thing they can offer me is drugs, which I have worked extremely hard to get off of and plan to stay off of.)

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#48

Post by Alex3917 »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #15
Alex3917 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The sad thing is even though the study has been thoroughly discredited, it continues to hang around and be cited by anti-vaccine activists." Unlike HN commenters constantly promoting dangerous psychiatric drugs that are no more effective than placebos, extrinsic rewards for children who read/exercise, Bill Gates' KIPP-based school reforms, the conflation of homeopathic and naturopathic medicine, using GPA for hiring…

Where are the HN users you're talking about? Promoting using GPA for hiring? That doesn't sound like the anti-higher-education HN I know and love/tolerate :)

Fair enough, a lot of people in general obviously do that though. I guess my point is that I see people posting stuff here all the time that's contradicted by science, but people only call it out on socially acceptable issues.

For example, if I had a dollar for every time I saw someone on HN criticizing the methodology of a study they haven't actually read then I wouldn't be doing a startup right now. And yet these posts rarely get downvoted.

Re: Retracted autism/vaccine study an 'elaborate fraud,' British journal finds

#49

Post by pharrington »

Mz wrote: post #27
johngalt wrote: post #23

I don't understand the Anti-Vaccine crowd. I see no possible way for what they espouse to be morally responsible. Without vaccines the mortality rate of children to these diseases would be higher than the total rate of autism. This means that you would have more kids die than get autism even if every case of autism was directly caused by a vaccine. This leaves us with two options for the beliefs of the anti-vaccinati…

Those aren't the only two options. But I mostly avoid discussions like this on HN because the atmosphere here is pretty openly judgmental and hostile (a la your remark) so I don't see any real good coming out of trying to discuss it. It doesn't help that anyone here who is anti-vax tends to post in these threads in a manner that just promotes the view that we are all extremist nutcases, unfamiliar with basic logic, e…

The reason people are so hostile about this is because the anti-vaccination belief is objectively wrong and literally fatal. It is directly analogous to believing AIDS isn't spread by HIV.
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