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The electric car as a talisman of false hope

jussipasanen.com

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Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#41

Post by Denzel »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #23
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

People that buy electric cars to help the environment or become vegetarian, are probably more likely to make additional changes in their life, and persuade others to make changes as well, to reduce emissions. I'm not sure about that, some of my neighbours seem to think that giving up plastic bags is enough to offset their annual holiday in Bali. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-licensing

Sure, I’d be interested in seeing actual data. Which is why I qualified my statement with “probably” because of course I have anecdotes that counter your anecdotes. :) I just don’t have the time to look into any primary sources.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#42

Post by avip »

eptcyka wrote: post #21
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The argument isn't that doing _something_ is bad, it's that the amount of effort people put into obtaining their shiny non-paleolithic-compost-fueled-but-rather-battery-powered 2 tonne sledgehammers would be better spent changing policies that operate on organizational rather than individual units. How about we just stop buying as much shit from halfway across the world? Global trade requires us to spend stupid amoun…

Eco-friendly behavior does not abide to laws of matter conservation. I see no reason to suspect people who reduce carbon footprint using X would stop being vegetarians for example.

In fact, everything I know suggests the opposite - environmental engagement is always a positive feedback loop.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#43

Post by [deleted] »

acd wrote: post #32

Electric batteries gives the most effect in shared transport such as buses and taxis. If I remember correctly it’s 50x more efficient with batteries in such public vehicles. This is due to higher utilization they buses drive all day vs private cars mostly are parked. This we should electrify public transport first for maximum carbon reduction.

[deleted]

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#44

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

PeterStuer wrote: post #9
alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

You are in for a cold shower. Above 35 km/h (~22 mph) tire noise becomes the dominant factor. Besides, a large part of a modern vehicle's engine noise is designed. Some cars even go as far as play engine noises through added speakers.

The best noise reduction measure in cities is to limit cars to 30 km/h. Which, by the way, also actually reduces the time it takes to get to places by car (because you need fewer traffic lights), apart from obviously making the city much safer for bikes and pedestrians.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#45

Post by Al-Khwarizmi »

rebuilder wrote: post #3

Are there examples of societies radically changing their lifestyles in order to prevent a disaster?

Chinese one-child policy is the closest I can come to an example off the top of my head. A much milder change than the one required against global warming, and it required an authoritarian government, though...

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#46

Post by PeterStuer »

mcot2 wrote: post #31
PeterStuer wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are in for a cold shower. Above 35 km/h (~22 mph) tire noise becomes the dominant factor. Besides, a large part of a modern vehicle's engine noise is designed. Some cars even go as far as play engine noises through added speakers.

Source? Does this hold true for diesel trucks and buses and garbage trucks which are very common in cities?

Below is a non-technical article on the subject.

Large heavy utility diesel trucks like garbage trucks have huge engines, extreme start-stop patterns, lots of shifting. Those are loud by themselves. Also, they are low production volume and are only noise insulated in as far as regulation requires them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/americas-bes...

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#47

Post by 693471 »

I bought my EV for three reasons:

1. Traditional car maintenance is expensive and sucks

2. I'm betting due to natural disasters in the environment and in the Oval Office we will see fuel prices continue to rise

3. While I don't think it will save the planet by itself, it can certainly save lives. Emissions are dangerous to breathe in and we are willfully ignoring it.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#48

Post by lota-putty »

acd wrote: post #32

Electric batteries gives the most effect in shared transport such as buses and taxis. If I remember correctly it’s 50x more efficient with batteries in such public vehicles. This is due to higher utilization they buses drive all day vs private cars mostly are parked. This we should electrify public transport first for maximum carbon reduction.

+1 Electric Public Transport

-1 Battery based Public Transport

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#49

Post by pas »

eptcyka wrote: post #21
Denzel wrote: post #13

His argument distills to: solve it all-at-once, or don’t solve it at all. This is an uninteresting and uninspiring line of thinking that ignores the nature of socially dynamic systems which don’t exist in a world of instantaneous cause-and-effect. His conclusion states that electric cars make a difference, but they don’t make a real difference: “I do think they can slightly reduce unsustainability” but “by switching…

The argument isn't that doing _something_ is bad, it's that the amount of effort people put into obtaining their shiny non-paleolithic-compost-fueled-but-rather-battery-powered 2 tonne sledgehammers would be better spent changing policies that operate on organizational rather than individual units. How about we just stop buying as much shit from halfway across the world? Global trade requires us to spend stupid amoun…

A lot of people already don't buy shit. At all.

I mean after about a decade I finally gave in and bought a used TV (instead of using a PC monitor). I already don't fly to useless tech conferences, and work remotely (so no mindless daily commute).

And eventually when the e-charger network will become widespread enough around here, I guess, I'll buy a used EV instead of the current car, because cities can't ban these smoke machines fast enough.

And when the choice is presented I already buy local stuff.

But.. this is a luxury for me/us, because of the enormous income inequality bonus of IT/tech.

Those who already live on the edge won't pick the local things, they will pick the cheapest one. And the way to make the GHG-friendly stuff cheap is to tax the shit out of the GHG-positive things.

And that unfortunately seems like a pretty hard challenge, thanks to our wonderful society favoring chauvinists rhetoric, trade wars, nationalist triades, and other bullshit.

So, yes, in terms of the big picture EVs don't matter much, but without even presenting an alternative, it'll be quite impossible to persuade the other half of society.

Re: The electric car as a talisman of false hope

#50

Post by cowsandmilk »

alexgmcm wrote: post #2

Honestly, I hope electric cars become commonplace just because of the reduction in noise pollution let alone PM and CO2 emissions. Furthermore, I'm not really sure what the author thinks we should do? How can we maintain modern civilisation without factories etc.? Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

> Reverting to some primitive state seems neither realistic nor desirable.

You'll see plenty of complaining online about DC's transit system, but to me it is an example of what can be done.

Vienna metro station is ~13 miles as the crow flies outside the city center. It gets trains every 8 minutes and 12 minutes during rush hour. Compare to Boston where train stations at the same distance out have service every half hour during rush hour and once an hour outside of rush hour. Add to it that if you continue along I-66 much past Vienna, you enter HOT-3 lanes, where you either have 3 passengers in a car or pay a toll.

Guess what the result is? People in the DC area take the metro at Vienna because there is frequency of service and are disincentivized from driving. People in Boston drive in. It isn't a primitive state or a postmodern crowded dystopia. The people commuting from Vienna mostly live a suburban life with yards. The infrastructure is just there to encourage taking the train.

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