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Somehow I Became Respectable

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Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#41

Post by paganel »

4ntonius8lock wrote: post #30

"First the establishment will ignore you; then they laugh at you; then they crack down on you and then you become part of the establishment." Someone I'm glad everything he represents is now accepted. I remember watching Pink Flamingos in the early 2000s when I was discovering cinematography and understanding the industry and it's evolution. It has shock value, but it was deeper than that. When I saw his film, it rem…

> I truly wonder what's the next set of values to go through this process.

One still cannot do a funny movie/work of art about the Holocaust, as far as I can tell that’s one of the most taboo things to work with as an artist. Benigni’s movie was not a 100% comedy and maybe that’s why it eventually worked the way it did, but as far as I know Jerry Lewis’s movie was much more on the comedy side of things.

And if the King of Comedy himself cannot pull this off I think nobody else can. I also find it interesting that nobody else seems to be even trying nowadays, it has become too much of a taboo.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#42

Post by tombert »

mruts wrote: post #24
sp332 wrote: post #20

Alice Cooper said years ago that he couldn't shock audiences anymore. Shock just seems not to be a thing audiences do now.

[flagged]

Calling someone an idiot because they express an idiotic viewpoint isn't "shock", it's calling a spade a spade.

As somewhat of a hyper-lefty progressive (and someone whose wife is an immigrant), I don't actually have any issue with someone merely supporting some level of immigration control, and I don't think I'm particularly weird about that; it's not an inherently unreasonable position to want to keep bad people out of the country. People start getting upset when the rhetoric gets borderline racist, or when they refuse to talk about anything else except some shortsighted, dogwhistling rhetoric that they read off of Breitbart the previous morning.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#43

Post by merpnderp »

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #22
jedberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that you mention the Simpsons, which itself used to be so counterculture that you were a bad parent if you let your kid watch it. Now it's so mainstream that they can't find a plot that offends people anymore, not so much because they toned it down, but because society caught up to the Simpsons.

>they can't find a plot that offends people anymore, I doubt that is true. I bet that it is more like the people they offended could not really do much about that offense other than yell about it which just made the sows writers more popular in Hollywood. Now, if they come up with a plot that offends, they are likely to get de-platformed and lose their ability to find a job in Hollywood.

Do people not get your point or are they proving it with the downvotes? Just the thought of poking fun at any modern movement enough to cause anger?

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#44

Post by tombert »

mruts wrote: post #34
Loughla wrote: post #10

Honestly, inside me it makes me wonder if we're seeing the cultural movement toward more progressive ideals, or if we're just seeing the cumulative generational shift away from what their parents stood for. Meaning - WWII's "the greatest generation" was a relatively conservative generation, and it's gone more liberal in terms of social movements ever since. Are we going to keep seeing this movement toward liberalism,…

I dunno, it doesn't seem like we are moving toward liberalism. Everyone wants everyone else kicked off a twitter, everyone wants censorship. Tumblr bans porn, youtube bans anything people complain about, cloudflare doesn't want to do business with 8chan, etc etc. These are all incredibly illiberal and having nothing to do with true liberalism. Liberalism, fundamentally, is about freedom (negative rights), both econom…

Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it.

What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't it part of Cloudflare's free speech to say "we don't want to be party to this"? Isn't it a very liberal position to say "all these private companies can do business with people that they want to"?

Now, I'm actually totally willing to entertain the discussion that these corporations are so big that they should be either broken up and/or treated as utilities, but that seems to fight against classical liberalism.

EDIT:

Also, in the United States, it wasn't that long ago that marijuana possession was an enforceable crime in all fifty states, which is slowly going away. I wouldn't bring this up, except you mentioned drugs being illegal as some sort of evidence that we're becoming less liberal, despite the fact that cannabis legalization has been happening and expanding.

Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles?

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#45

Post by m463 »

acomjean wrote: post #8

Compared to our current politics, John Waters is kinda respectable. I saw him at a university auditorium a couple years ago. Entertaining. Plus he was great on the Simpsons. Time seems to take the shock out of things. Maybe its the non-stop access to interesting things on the internet and photos and videos of everything taking the rumor and imagination out of things. GWAR's shows were mythic but now we have a nice wi…

I first learned of gwar from beavis and butthead.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#46

Post by mruts »

tombert wrote: post #44
mruts wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, it doesn't seem like we are moving toward liberalism. Everyone wants everyone else kicked off a twitter, everyone wants censorship. Tumblr bans porn, youtube bans anything people complain about, cloudflare doesn't want to do business with 8chan, etc etc. These are all incredibly illiberal and having nothing to do with true liberalism. Liberalism, fundamentally, is about freedom (negative rights), both econom…

Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it. What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't i…

Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar situation, I might fold as well.

And, like you said, classical liberalism is about freedom, for both corporations and individuals. I certainly don't think that censorship on these platforms should be illegal or anything. I'm just disappointed, I guess. I feel like the world is moving in the wrong direction. I always thought the internet was going to empower everyone and subvert centralized power structures. In some regards, it did and it still does. But these subversive upstarts are now the new centralized power structures and it seems like the next wave of subversion and decentralized has not happened yet and may not ever happen.

It troubles me that the very same people arguing about a women's right to choose are slamming facebook and youtube and twitter for allowing people to express their opinions. It troubles me that these same people don't recognize the rights to buy and use drugs or consume pornography. The political axis of most people seem two multi-dimensional: They like some freedoms and want to take away others. But the way I see it there is only one dimension: oppression and tyranny on one end and free speech and individualism on the other. Social and economic freedoms go hand and hand, which is something both conservatives and liberals both seem to be confused about.

Health care isn't a human right, housing isn't a human right, forcing businesses to transact with you if they don't want to isn't a human right. The only true human right is to live one's own life free from tyranny and oppression. To do anything that doesn't impinge upon another human's right to do the same.

> Not exactly sure how legal bestiality fits into liberalism; if you view the animal as a thinking entity, wouldn't having sex with something unable to provide consent be a violation of liberal principles?

Well, I mean, then maybe we should outlaw animals having sex with each other? It's not like they give consent to each other.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/05/business/youtube-remove-e...

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#47

Post by therealcamino »

jedberg wrote: post #18
acomjean wrote: post #8

Compared to our current politics, John Waters is kinda respectable. I saw him at a university auditorium a couple years ago. Entertaining. Plus he was great on the Simpsons. Time seems to take the shock out of things. Maybe its the non-stop access to interesting things on the internet and photos and videos of everything taking the rumor and imagination out of things. GWAR's shows were mythic but now we have a nice wi…

It's funny that you mention the Simpsons, which itself used to be so counterculture that you were a bad parent if you let your kid watch it. Now it's so mainstream that they can't find a plot that offends people anymore, not so much because they toned it down, but because society caught up to the Simpsons.

"Fox turned into a hardcore porn channel so gradually I didn't even notice."

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#48

Post by taneq »

ticmasta wrote: post #28
jedberg wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's funny that you mention the Simpsons, which itself used to be so counterculture that you were a bad parent if you let your kid watch it. Now it's so mainstream that they can't find a plot that offends people anymore, not so much because they toned it down, but because society caught up to the Simpsons.

First that job went to Southpark, then Family Guy. Now we show the most offensive plots of all but call it "reality TV"

> Now we show the most offensive plots of all but call it

“the news”

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#49

Post by tombert »

mruts wrote: post #46
tombert wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Youtube didn't "ban" "anything people complain about", they just demonetized it and stopped recommending it as frequently. Still not great, but they're not taking your soapbox away, they're just not paying as much for it. What would you suggest companies like Cloudflare do exactly? There have been talks of 8chan being accessory to literal terrorism; do you think that they really want to be hosting that stuff? Isn't i…

Youtube has removed many videos pushing subversive views[1]. Do I agree with these views (maybe I do, I haven't seen the videos, but I doubt it), no. But that's beside the point. And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff. If I had the power I would like to think I would act differently, but I understand that the teleological purpose of a company is to make money and if I was in a similar…

> And you're right, youtube and 8chan don't want to be hosting that stuff.

It actually looks like 8chan is perfectly fine hosting this stuff, which is the problem. I doubt Cloudflare would have as much of an issue if 8chan were proactive in taking down a lot of its more terroristic content.

> It troubles me that the very same people arguing about a women's right to choose are slamming facebook and youtube and twitter for allowing people to express their opinions.

Is anyone actually getting mad at Youtube/Facebook for simply allowing dissenting opinions? Most people get upset with the really awful stuff, like, genuine harassment or race-baiting; I honestly don't know anyone that is calling for the removal of people just because they hold an opinion against the norm.

People called for Alex Jones to be banned (which eventually happened) because he was actively and purposefully doing things to hurt people. He was spreading a lot of misinformation, which led to someone with a gun trying to shoot up a pizza shop, and to people directly targeting the victims' parents of the Sandy Hook massacre because he, for years, spread the idea that it was a hoax; he also would constantly accuse anyone he disagreed with of being a pedophile.

Everyone has a line for free speech; the easy example is "yelling fire in the crowded theater", but if I hired a hitman, it's not like it would be a valid court defense for me to say "Well it's my free speech to tell someone to kill someone". Saying that there should be no limits on free speech is intellectually dishonest, and we gain nothing from it. If certain people are causing measurable and unambiguous harm from the things that they're saying, then, to me, that's where we draw the line at giving them a platform.

> Well, I mean, then maybe we should outlaw animals having sex with each other? It's not like they give consent to each other.

I don't believe that you're saying this in good faith. If two thirteen-year-olds have sex with each other, society doesn't typically have too much of an outrage because they're just two kids who don't know better. If a forty-five-year-old has sex with a thirteen-year-old then we get upset, because a grown-ass adult should know better.

Re: Somehow I Became Respectable

#50

Post by asveikau »

mruts wrote: post #24
sp332 wrote: post #20

Alice Cooper said years ago that he couldn't shock audiences anymore. Shock just seems not to be a thing audiences do now.

[flagged]

Asking someone to be tolerant of intolerance seems like some weird thing where you ask a Turing machine if another one will halt. It's kind of paradoxical.
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