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Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

bppe.ca.gov

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Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#41

Post by napoleond »

tibbon wrote: post #5

Doesn't shock me one bit. I worked for General Assembly ~5 years ago, and they were really serious about getting and staying on top of all the state guidelines. I got the sense that we were the only school taking that seriously at the time. The only thing that shocks me is that we haven't seen such earlier. I don't have a strong opinion about if such things should be regulated or not, but I do know that there's a lot…

> I do know that there's a lot of people who have just slapped together programs to ride a money wave, and offer relatively little in exchange

It's not clear if you're intending to criticize Lambda School in particular here, but given the context that's how it comes across. If that wasn't your intention, it might be worth clarifying your comment; otherwise it might be worth providing some supporting evidence. I'm not associated with Lambda School, but am a fan precisely because they have always struck me as a really sincere organization that works hard to maximize value for their students.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#42

Post by bushido »

austenallred wrote: post #30
bushido wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal advise can be tricky, specially when trying to do something new. I have seen a few situations where this scenario played out Out of curiosity, was the paperwork cumbersome, or did the old counsel just not know? note: I considered rewording the "not know" bit since regulations can be tricky, there can be other reasons why they might've felt that the need to register wasn't there. Most of which I feel, for counse…

Old counsel read the regulation passed by the BPPE and said it didn’t apply to us because we didn’t have physical classrooms. The BPPE disagreed. It took two people two months full-time to prepare and submit.

That amount of paperwork sounds for a lack of a better word – insane. I can't see it being easy for any side of this quantity of paperwork being able to get it right easily.

Perhaps there is an opportunity for some start-up to help solve this.

--

On a different note, I love what you folks are doing and keep pitching lambda to folks who're stuck in long uber/lyft rides with me.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#43

Post by rolltiide »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #18
austenallred wrote: post #11

It’s true. Our counsel informed us that we didn’t need to register. Counsel was wrong. Now we have new counsel :) We’ve submitted all the paperwork and have worked closely with California. This all happened a long time ago. I’m not sure what the right level of regulation is (it’s hard taking care of 50 states at once - one state registration was 2,277 pages and weighed 25 pounds https://twitter.com/austen/status/1153…

Not directing this at you, but to all - this is a concrete example of why you shouldn’t blindly trust legal (or medical, or spiritual) advice. Ask questions, make sure you understand, and think critically. No one is infallible.

I think this is a concrete example of why to blindly trust legal advice.

There are some laws explicitly written to say that ignorance of the law is an excuse. "knowing an willing violation" (I don't know if this is one of them though)

Taking that to the logical extreme of having a legal opinion with every email puts you in a very privileged situation with the state

It exponentially increases the cost of the state to investigate. The state now knows you have a lawyer already, but doesn't know the contents of the advice and doesn't get to use things under attorney-client privilege even if a judge approved a fishing expedition that exposed your digital artifacts. And in the meantime it lowers your compliance burden if the advice says you don't have to comply, depending on how you compensate your lawyer your costs were super low.

If there is potentially criminal liability, but the burden of proof is a knowing and willful violation, then you're practically exempt because of the lawyer on payroll.

So in this case they negotiated the fine and get to improve operations.

Costs of investigating and prosecuting aside, the state likes to see a rationale for compliance. The lawyer also provides that, which you would prefer to have some case law to support it. This doesn't result in sanctioning the lawyer, its just not worth it to the state.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#44

Post by austenallred »

bushido wrote: post #42
austenallred wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Old counsel read the regulation passed by the BPPE and said it didn’t apply to us because we didn’t have physical classrooms. The BPPE disagreed. It took two people two months full-time to prepare and submit.

That amount of paperwork sounds for a lack of a better word – insane. I can't see it being easy for any side of this quantity of paperwork being able to get it right easily. Perhaps there is an opportunity for some start-up to help solve this. -- On a different note, I love what you folks are doing and keep pitching lambda to folks who're stuck in long uber/lyft rides with me.

We’re lucky enough to have enough time/money to assign people to it full-time. I don’t know how a small school would comply.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#45

Post by neom »

austenallred wrote: post #34
neom wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind me asking, were you using a boutique lawyer or a big firm?

Big firm. We should have been using an education-specific boutique for this specific thing, but this started happened when we were tiny and still figuring a lot.

I can attest to having a similar issue in a startup that got large, we used one of the big firms for 100% of the work and should have been doing 10% of it with a specialized firm. It's not really startup advice you get, but it can be very costly later. Glad you got it sorted out.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#46

Post by mieseratte »

tibbon wrote: post #5

Doesn't shock me one bit. I worked for General Assembly ~5 years ago, and they were really serious about getting and staying on top of all the state guidelines. I got the sense that we were the only school taking that seriously at the time. The only thing that shocks me is that we haven't seen such earlier. I don't have a strong opinion about if such things should be regulated or not, but I do know that there's a lot…

I'm not quite sure where I stand on the regulation vs. lack thereof when it comes to these types of operations either, but between working in a hiring capacity, serving as a mock-interviewer, being courted as a potential instructor, and being friends with both instructors and unsuccessful graduates (across ~5 years) from my local, now defunct code camp - there are a lot of folks who go into these programs, often going into non-trivial debt, and coming out with nothing to show for it.

I will never forget watching a grown man cry in a mock interview because he could not solve FizzBuzz. I made sure they understood the relevant operators, the problem, inputs and expected output, gave ample time, kept things very casual and relaxed, and told them to ask any questions they needed. This was practice, after all.

I suppose I would cry too, if I wasted months and ~20,000, likely banking on a great new life as a programmer.

At the same time I've worked with great entry-level developers who used the code camps to jump from "bad" positions, e.g. young dead-ended professionals, folks with complimentary degrees but no job prospects in that industry, etc. The common thread with these folks is either prior background programming, a personal support network of programmers, or both.

What kind of regulation would help for this? Mandated entrance exams with a hard-cutoff?

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#47

Post by austenallred »

moate wrote: post #17
austenallred wrote: post #11

It’s true. Our counsel informed us that we didn’t need to register. Counsel was wrong. Now we have new counsel :) We’ve submitted all the paperwork and have worked closely with California. This all happened a long time ago. I’m not sure what the right level of regulation is (it’s hard taking care of 50 states at once - one state registration was 2,277 pages and weighed 25 pounds https://twitter.com/austen/status/1153…

Glad you got that sorted out. Lambda school does seem to be "one of the good guys" out there in this market, so I'm glad to see you're taking the steps to keep that reputation.

We’re trying

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#48

Post by mychael »

austenallred wrote: post #11

It’s true. Our counsel informed us that we didn’t need to register. Counsel was wrong. Now we have new counsel :) We’ve submitted all the paperwork and have worked closely with California. This all happened a long time ago. I’m not sure what the right level of regulation is (it’s hard taking care of 50 states at once - one state registration was 2,277 pages and weighed 25 pounds https://twitter.com/austen/status/1153…

I would be an even bigger fan of Lambda if you guys fought this or left CA all together.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#49

Post by merpnderp »

austenallred wrote: post #11

It’s true. Our counsel informed us that we didn’t need to register. Counsel was wrong. Now we have new counsel :) We’ve submitted all the paperwork and have worked closely with California. This all happened a long time ago. I’m not sure what the right level of regulation is (it’s hard taking care of 50 states at once - one state registration was 2,277 pages and weighed 25 pounds https://twitter.com/austen/status/1153…

25 lbs of paperwork to register an online school? Sounds less about protecting students and more towards protecting incumbents and cronies.

Re: Lambda School fined $75k by CA for operating without state approval [pdf]

#50

Post by davidw »

mychael wrote: post #48
austenallred wrote: post #11

It’s true. Our counsel informed us that we didn’t need to register. Counsel was wrong. Now we have new counsel :) We’ve submitted all the paperwork and have worked closely with California. This all happened a long time ago. I’m not sure what the right level of regulation is (it’s hard taking care of 50 states at once - one state registration was 2,277 pages and weighed 25 pounds https://twitter.com/austen/status/1153…

I would be an even bigger fan of Lambda if you guys fought this or left CA all together.

I think they're in the business of teaching people, not fighting anti-government crusades.
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