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Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

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Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#41

Post by kayoone »

DangerousPie wrote: post #25
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany's tech illiteracy is a self-inflicted consequence of its pitiful salaries in this field, treating IT like a cost center that has to be outsourced to wherever is cheaper and companies' tradition of rewarding management incompetence over technical competence. Consequently, Germany's most brilliant tech minds leave for The Valley, Zurich or London. You reap what you sow.

Based on what I have heard from friends in London and Germany salaries are actually a lot better in Germany. Especially once you account for cost of living.

This. Salaries of 70-90k EUR for Senior devs in Berlin are absolutely achievable and combined with the quite low cost of living in Berlin you probably have more fun money than anywhere in Europe as a developer.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#42

Post by est31 »

adrianN wrote: post #29
est31 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a German soon to be CS graduate and right now my favourites are SV and London. I'll try to get into a company that can sponsor L1 visa for SV first and then I'll try London. The German job market is precisely as described by GP: you are competing all the time with remote people in countries with much smaller cost of living and the wages are super low compared to aforementioned places. Germany has great schools, a…

There are companies in Germany who pay really well, especially if you take into account cost of living. Look around a bit before leaving the country.

Do you have any names?

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#43

Post by kayoone »

est31 wrote: post #27
mschuster91 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treating IT like a cost center that has to be outsourced to wherever is cheaper As if outsourcing wasn't a common trend across Western companies "thanks" to globalization and the utter dominance of US-american neoliberalism. > and companies' tradition of rewarding management incompetence over technical competence Again, quite common - the "old" Soziale Marktwirtschaft moguls with decades-long visions would not let…

I'm a German soon to be CS graduate and right now my favourites are SV and London. I'll try to get into a company that can sponsor L1 visa for SV first and then I'll try London. The German job market is precisely as described by GP: you are competing all the time with remote people in countries with much smaller cost of living and the wages are super low compared to aforementioned places. Germany has great schools, a…

come to Berlin, nothing of what you say applies there imo. Salaries might be substantially lower than in SV, but it's also far far cheaper. Eg. as a Senior 70-90k EUR is realistic in Berlin (without management), allowing you a very good quality of live in a city that is nowhere near SV/London in terms of rent and many other expenses.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#44

Post by tpush »

kayoone wrote: post #41
DangerousPie wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Based on what I have heard from friends in London and Germany salaries are actually a lot better in Germany. Especially once you account for cost of living.

This. Salaries of 70-90k EUR for Senior devs in Berlin are absolutely achievable and combined with the quite low cost of living in Berlin you probably have more fun money than anywhere in Europe as a developer.

But not nearly as much as you'd have in the US, probably.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#45

Post by adrianN »

est31 wrote: post #42
adrianN wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are companies in Germany who pay really well, especially if you take into account cost of living. Look around a bit before leaving the country.

Do you have any names?

Twitch has some engineering in Berlin, Amazon pays quite well, Siemens pays quite well, as do the various car companies (basically any company with a strong IG Metall presence pays 70k+ for developers), Snowflake has some engineering in Berlin too (I work for them, you can figure out my email address fairly easily and drop me a mail if you like). Startups in Berlin generally pay 60-100k depending on seniority. Median income in Berlin is something like 18k after taxes, so maybe 30k before taxes.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#46

Post by paganel »

lnsru wrote: post #10

As of today we still use shared network drives for everything in major German company. We don’t use slack/irc/Skype/zoom/whatever. Phone calls and conferences(!) from the middle of open office is normal. Asana/Trello/Jira are not known at all. GitHub is paid for, but never used. I am single weirdo in multi department project using github ticket system. The code with prefix is copied for colleagues to project’s shared…

The state of the German IT industry outside of a few select places (Berlin, mostly) is what makes me very pessimistic about the future of its car industry.

They (meaning the big 3: VW, BMW and Mercedes) apparently still think that building the best engines/transmissions and being the best at putting them all together is all it takes in order to make a modern car, unfortunately I think EVs will be more about software and the way said software can best manage the car's power resources. From far away Tesla looks like it's doing quite a nice job with its EV software, the Germans, not so much.

If it matters I've never worked in Germany but as an IT person/programmer living in Europe I've followed the German IT industry pretty constantly as Germany is one of the best countries in terms of quality of life (I know it's not perfect, but it sure beats my Eastern European country). Unfortunately for me its backwards IT industry (again, as seen from the outside) keeps me away from it.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#47

Post by TeMPOraL »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #5
iagovar wrote: post #2

This group of german companies founded their own security group [German Cyber Security Organization (DCSO)]. That speaks a lot about their trust in their public services. The only time I've been involved in a hacking attempt (it was ransomware) the company I work for contacted the CCN-CERT. I wonder if US companies contact NSA/Other gov agencies or deal with it themselves with security companies. Also, while I unders…

Probably because when it comes to anything cyber-related, the German government, like most big companies there, is a dinosaur, greatly inferior to it's British and Swiss counterparts.

Germany at least has the CCC, which it sometimes asks for advice and, occasionally, listens to.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#48

Post by ionised »

tpush wrote: post #44
kayoone wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. Salaries of 70-90k EUR for Senior devs in Berlin are absolutely achievable and combined with the quite low cost of living in Berlin you probably have more fun money than anywhere in Europe as a developer.

But not nearly as much as you'd have in the US, probably.

The US has its own downsides though. It's all about what trade-offs you're willing to make, and raw salary is not the only factor.

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#49

Post by jamesmadison66 »

arrrg wrote: post #8
tobiasu wrote: post #4

What an obnoxious presentation. And I'm paying for this garbage.

What are your specific criticisms? A blanket dismissal is not very helpful and additionally sort of off-topic. For what it’s worth I found the presentation to be excellent. Extremely well readable, clear focus on text presentation and typography, tasteful illustrations that stay back and give the text the center stage but are still for the most part helpful, extremely well done and tasteful animations. (I read this o…

that was my take, major props to a public news type of company for working to explain the tech details (I think, not German)

Re: Winnti: Hackers attacking the heart of German industry

#50

Post by est31 »

adrianN wrote: post #45
est31 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any names?

Twitch has some engineering in Berlin, Amazon pays quite well, Siemens pays quite well, as do the various car companies (basically any company with a strong IG Metall presence pays 70k+ for developers), Snowflake has some engineering in Berlin too (I work for them, you can figure out my email address fairly easily and drop me a mail if you like). Startups in Berlin generally pay 60-100k depending on seniority. Median…

Thanks!
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