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Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

arstechnica.com

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Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#41

Post by benj111 »

mikeyouse wrote: post #23
benj111 wrote: post #15

How useful is this in actuality? Could I launch it from the ground, or does it need to be launched from the air? Could i just strap it to a Cessna, or does it need other systems (radar?) to work? Does it need the original war head, or can you attach any old explosive device. In short, if I as a potential terrorist wanted to shoot down a plane, would this be a reasonable starting point?

Not at all useful, needs to be fired from the air, from a specific outdated French jet weapon system that essentially nobody uses any more. Speculation was that maybe Libya would have a use for it. And yes, its target needs to be painted with a radar for the entire flight. 30kg of high explosive could be useful to a generic terrorist but it's unlikely that the missile itself would have been used. https://www.thedrive…

That's kind of what I thought.

But then the asking price seems high, it doesn't seem to have a warhead so this is just the missile.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#42

Post by kitteh »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #30

How dangerous is one of these things without the surrounding targeting system? And how useful would this be to a foreign government that somehow doesn't have access to other air-to-air missiles? It seems to me like a bit of a sensationalist headline, and the more dangerous weapons are actually the small arms.

The 530 is a SARH missile. It requires a radar system (found in the French Mirage aircraft for example) to lock and paint it's target the entire time for the missile to track and eventually detonate. It would be pretty difficult to do and the acqusition/targeting radar would need to be cooled and energized for the duration of the flight. Launching A2A missiles from the ground is pretty rare but it is possible as evidenced recently by Yemen ground launching a Russian R27T infrared missile successfully at a Saudi F15.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#43

Post by throwaway8879 »

benj111 wrote: post #15

How useful is this in actuality? Could I launch it from the ground, or does it need to be launched from the air? Could i just strap it to a Cessna, or does it need other systems (radar?) to work? Does it need the original war head, or can you attach any old explosive device. In short, if I as a potential terrorist wanted to shoot down a plane, would this be a reasonable starting point?

Probably not very useable at all. But it points out how independant actors are able to access weapons that are otherwise not sold to anybody who isn't the state.

Which leads to the question, if an incompetent party that was careless enough get busted has access to an old and useless missile, then what do the competent independent groups have access to?

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#44

Post by tpm »

klez wrote: post #9
skrebbel wrote: post #6

Anyone with more insight into all of this than me who can explain why they went to fight on the Russian side? I mean, there surely were neo-nazis around on both sides of that conflict, right? Just different flavours? I wonder how you pick who to support if your core ideology is that "people different from us are bad".

I find it weird too, especially considering that Donbass and Luhansk declared themselves People's Soviets. I think it's just shoddy journalism and those people actually fought alongside Ukranian troops.

Doesn't mean anything really, especially as far-right extremists are not the brightest bulbs.

Slovak neonazis were fighting in Donbass on the side of Russians/separatistit, because that side invested heavily in propaganda (abroad, not only domestic) and presented itself as a front against anything modern and especially the EU (which is the incarnation of evil to them), so reactionary forces are naturally drawn to them.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#45

Post by kozak »

Elzear wrote: post #36
FDS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn‘t fight on the russian side. For some reason english media mistranslated original press release. https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497... It says "avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti". So they were fighting against separatists.

Can't "indipendentisti" mean in favor of Ukraine's independence to Russia ?

More likely, Donbass "independence" from Ukraine.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#46

Post by benj111 »

throwaway8879 wrote: post #43
benj111 wrote: post #15

How useful is this in actuality? Could I launch it from the ground, or does it need to be launched from the air? Could i just strap it to a Cessna, or does it need other systems (radar?) to work? Does it need the original war head, or can you attach any old explosive device. In short, if I as a potential terrorist wanted to shoot down a plane, would this be a reasonable starting point?

Probably not very useable at all. But it points out how independant actors are able to access weapons that are otherwise not sold to anybody who isn't the state. Which leads to the question, if an incompetent party that was careless enough get busted has access to an old and useless missile, then what do the competent independent groups have access to?

But maybe they only bought it because they were incompetent? Maybe the competent groups know that some random air to air missile is worthless, and steered well clear.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#47

Post by kozak »

skrebbel wrote: post #6

Anyone with more insight into all of this than me who can explain why they went to fight on the Russian side? I mean, there surely were neo-nazis around on both sides of that conflict, right? Just different flavours? I wonder how you pick who to support if your core ideology is that "people different from us are bad".

There are no* neo-nazis from the Ukrainian side, it's a Russian propaganda myth. Since WW2, they've been putting a "neo-nazi" label on anyone who thinks that Ukraine shouldn't be a part of Russia.

* I mean that ocurrence of neo-nazis is approximately the same as in any normal country. You can never say there are no neo-nazis in any particular group of people, of course.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#48

Post by kitteh »

benj111 wrote: post #41
mikeyouse wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all useful, needs to be fired from the air, from a specific outdated French jet weapon system that essentially nobody uses any more. Speculation was that maybe Libya would have a use for it. And yes, its target needs to be painted with a radar for the entire flight. 30kg of high explosive could be useful to a generic terrorist but it's unlikely that the missile itself would have been used. https://www.thedrive…

That's kind of what I thought. But then the asking price seems high, it doesn't seem to have a warhead so this is just the missile.

I would be much more concerned about the Chinese MANPADs that Qatar acquired and made their way into Syria and beyond.

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#49

Post by TorKlingberg »

AndyMcConachie wrote: post #20
FDS wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They didn‘t fight on the russian side. For some reason english media mistranslated original press release. https://www.poliziadistato.it/articolo/225d2c47fb2c9ef299497... It says "avevano combattuto nella regione ucraina del Donbass contro gli indipendentisti". So they were fighting against separatists.

Ars Technica needs to issue a correction to the story. Otherwise I'm going to lose considerable respect for them. There's a fine line between making a genuine mistake and lying to your readers.

I think it's you who got it wrong. Some Googling shows that Forza Nuova is pro-Russia, possibly having switched from supporting Ukranian fascist groups in the past.

"Mr. Fiore, of Italy’s Forza Nuova, said Moscow is now the sole guardian of Western values, in the way Rome once was."

https://www.wsj.com/articles/far-right-flocks-to-russia-to-b...

Re: Italian police raid of neo-fascist militants finds air-to-air missile

#50

Post by iagovar »

ryacko wrote: post #27
praptak wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who feel shafted by society will reject its values. No amount of inoculation prevents that. The best way of prevention is to genuinely care for the rejected.

Then Nazism is truly tragic, for those that follow it are the most prone to rejecting others. It seems so trivial, and yet we fall short.

If it wasn't the far-right it would be anything else. It's just a geopolitical game.
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