Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#41

Post by smt88 » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:07 PM UTC

daenz wrote: post #31

adamcharnock wrote: post #21

From what I hear (as someone now living in rural Portugal), a turning point came when most of the electorate knew someone suffering from a drug addiction. Be it a family member, partner, or friend - there came a point when the majority of people could not only see the problems caused by the epidemic, but could also empathise with those with addictions. As a result of this understanding/empathy, it was possible to pas…

For obvious reasons, I think many people would be against the suggestion that if more people were suffering from life-destroying drug addiction, a turning point would be reached and the problem would be solved faster. Surely there is a way to push back the spread of drugs and addiction, without letting it overtake society first.

Democracies often resist legislation that is proactive and instead react to a disaster

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#42

Post by sigstoat » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:10 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #34

testaccount13 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing tinfoil hat about it. Drug dealers & cartels are well-known for using force to maintain monopolies.

I’m assuming the parent comment referred to “legal” actors lobbying to keep drugs illegal, as opposed to the cartels themselves. Do you think cartels have an interest in drugs being illegal, and if so could you explain why? I’d expect cartels to welcome the change as they can do away with fighting the law (where they no doubt pour a lot of their resources into) and start operating as legitimate businesses.

they won't function as legitimate businesses. there's not significant money to be made growing legal crops or synthesizing simple, 100 year old compounds. their business is operating a supply chain that most nation states are busy trying to disrupt.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#43

Post by sbov » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

lostmymind66 wrote: post #17

Because Portugal doesn't have countries like Mexico bordering it that will use the legal drug trade to further fund cartel violence and control over the country. Corruption is already so rampant, they need to fix their problems before we should ever think about legalizing all drugs. We already have an Opioid crises in the US..and this is with legal drugs. Lawmakers are already starting to blame the legal drug dealers…

Legalizing drugs is the best thing the US could do with respect to the cartels. Not only would it reduce profits, it would give producers an arbiter to go to when there are disputes rather than forcing them to rely on their own version of justice.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#44

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #32

jaredklewis wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But now we’re just playing semantics. For most intents and purposes, the difference between legal and fully decriminalized is not significant. The parent’s point is that there are many parties with an interest in drugs being criminalized, which explains why the world has not copied Portugal’s decriminalization model.

> For most intents and purposes, the difference between legal and fully decriminalized is not significant. Parent talked about profit, but in Portugal the production, distribution and sale are still a crime, and therefore the people profiting from those activities are still the same.

The profit is in enforcing the law. Defense contractors and prison guard unions don't make any money when something is nominally illegal but nobody is actually spending any money trying to stop it.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#45

Post by luckylion » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

ben-schaaf wrote: post #15

luckylion wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That may be a big part of the reason in the US, but Germany for example isn't big on decriminalization either, and we don't have anything similar to the US prison complex. I think a large part over here is that people think it's wrong and they don't believe in the individual's right to make a choice they consider wrong. Worldwide it's probably a mix of the two: powerful interests profiteering from the status quo and…

From some quick googling it looks to me like Germany isn't big on decriminalisation because they're already most of the way there: > In 1994, the Federal Constitutional Court ruled that drug addiction and the possession of small amounts of drugs for personal use were not crimes.

That only applied to Cannabis though, not to drugs in general, and it did not find that possession wasn't a crime, but that the state should not pursue indictments for personal use.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#46

Post by jakelazaroff » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:11 PM UTC

lostmymind66 wrote: post #17

Because Portugal doesn't have countries like Mexico bordering it that will use the legal drug trade to further fund cartel violence and control over the country. Corruption is already so rampant, they need to fix their problems before we should ever think about legalizing all drugs. We already have an Opioid crises in the US..and this is with legal drugs. Lawmakers are already starting to blame the legal drug dealers…

If you follow your prescription and become addicted to an opioid, and your doctor received kickbacks for prescribing it from the pharmaceutical company, despite the fact that the pharmaceutical company knew it was addictive… you should be able to sue, and I'd even go so far to say as someone should be prosecuted.

It's not "my body, my choice" with prescription drugs, because I didn't choose. I just trusted my doctor. Which I should be able to do, not have to second-guess whether they're actually working on behalf of a pharmaceutical company that explicitly values profits over human lives.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#47

Post by AnthonyMouse » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #34

testaccount13 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing tinfoil hat about it. Drug dealers & cartels are well-known for using force to maintain monopolies.

I’m assuming the parent comment referred to “legal” actors lobbying to keep drugs illegal, as opposed to the cartels themselves. Do you think cartels have an interest in drugs being illegal, and if so could you explain why? I’d expect cartels to welcome the change as they can do away with fighting the law (where they no doubt pour a lot of their resources into) and start operating as legitimate businesses.

> I’d expect cartels to welcome the change as they can do away with fighting the law (where they no doubt pour a lot of their resources into) and start operating as legitimate businesses.

Prohibition reduces competition which raises margins. It's the same reason why large corporations like regulation that destroys small competitors. The cartels don't want to have to compete with Joe Farmer in Iowa growing drug crops and selling them at the same margins as corn producers do.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#48

Post by gumby » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:13 PM UTC

1024core wrote: post #2

> Why hasn’t the world copied it? Because there's too much money* to be made in keeping the status quo. * I use the terms "money" and "power" to mean the same here.

Indeed, for opiates the DEA makes it essentially impossible for addicts to get working treatment like Suboxone, basically guaranteeing they’ll continue to be arrested and/or OD.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#49

Post by mtgx » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

adamcharnock wrote: post #21

From what I hear (as someone now living in rural Portugal), a turning point came when most of the electorate knew someone suffering from a drug addiction. Be it a family member, partner, or friend - there came a point when the majority of people could not only see the problems caused by the epidemic, but could also empathise with those with addictions. As a result of this understanding/empathy, it was possible to pas…

The majority of people wanting a certain law doesn't work in the US anyway as Congress is dependent on corporations much more than it is on the people: https://youtu.be/5tu32CCA_Ig

Until corporate bribes are removed from electoral campaigns this won't change.

Re: Portugal’s radical drugs policy is working (2017)

#50

Post by Youcandothis » Sun, Jul 14, 2019, 4:14 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #34

testaccount13 wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing tinfoil hat about it. Drug dealers & cartels are well-known for using force to maintain monopolies.

I’m assuming the parent comment referred to “legal” actors lobbying to keep drugs illegal, as opposed to the cartels themselves. Do you think cartels have an interest in drugs being illegal, and if so could you explain why? I’d expect cartels to welcome the change as they can do away with fighting the law (where they no doubt pour a lot of their resources into) and start operating as legitimate businesses.

If drugs were legal I imagine that other than the cartels would produce and sell the drugs. Maybe big pharma and the tobacco industry.