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Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

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Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#41

Post by frostburg »

alpaca128 wrote: post #4
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

A lot of people build their own ergonomic split keyboards, there are even websites like keeb.io which focus purely on kits for such variants, and open source projects like the ergodox or dactyl keyboards that everyone can 3D print(or otherwise create) and handwire with their own choice of componentes and materials. Of course it's not the majority but a market exists and many of the kits are almost constantly sold out…

I built a Nyquist from keeb.io parts (and zealios 67g switches). It was mostly to learn how to flash QMK to a microcontroller, solder the components etc., but I used it for a few weeks and it was surprisingly comfortable, better than my usual topre novatouch.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#42

Post by nyolfen »

eyeball wrote: post #8
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ As soon as the trackpoint modules are complete this will be the dream for me.

very cool, and also the most 90s looking piece of electronics i've seen in a while

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#43

Post by thrwaway442 »

atoav wrote: post #38
thrwaway442 wrote: post #34

Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not? A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before. I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is…

I have a keyboard with silent black MX switches and I never felt any need for clickyness. The cool thing about these linear switches (Black, Red, Silver, Grey) is that you can type extremely silent if you like to, by just hovering the keys or you can type loudly by bottoming them out (if somebody was wrong on the internet or so). When I type silently it is less loud than my lenovo notebook keyboard. For me the click…

thank you - this is very useful information!

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#44

Post by jacobolus »

EL_Loco wrote: post #19
aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

Ultimately, the ergonomic goal of a tool like a keyboard which is used for extended periods should be to encourage use with all joints in a relatively neutral position, with very low static load on muscles.

The thing that splitting the keyboard (while keeping it flat) helps with is reducing “ulnar deviation” of the wrist (outward rotation in the plane of the hands). It is also possible to avoid ulnar deviation on a standard keyboard by changing typing style a bit, which is why some people have less problem than others with a single-piece keyboard.

What helps most is not splitting the keyboard per se, but tilting the two sides upward toward the center (the ideal is probably something like a 45° tilt, but even a bit of “tenting” helps significantly).

Having the hands palms-down and close together (as forced by a standard keyboard) ends up causing an unpleasant trade-off between (a) forearms rotated uncomfortably inward about their axis (“wrist pronation”), or (b) elbows swung forward or out to the side to reduce the amount of wrist pronation, in the process causing shoulder and back strain, or causing people to rest their elbows, forearms, wrists, or palms on some surface to compensate for the shoulder strain, and often in the process flexing or extending their wrists.

Wrist flexion or extension is really the worst for any kind of repetitive motion. It dramatically reduces strength and responsiveness of the joints, and can cause severe repetitive strain injuries. You will notice that typical human tools are designed very carefully so they can be used with a mostly straight wrist (or tool-user technique has developed to work around tools which don’t make this obvious).

Tilting the keyboard the right amount front-to-back to match the height of the keyboard relative to the torso can help quite a bit; most keyboards I observe in the wild are tilted incorrectly. You want the plane of the keyboard to be roughly parallel to the plane of the forearm. So on a tall desk, the keyboard should be tilted up at the back. On a low keyboard tray they keyboard should be flat or even tilted slightly down at the back.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#45

Post by nextos »

tjoff wrote: post #30
EL_Loco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

I don't think it can be argued that they aren't more ergonomic than a regular keyboard. If you manage to create an uncomfortable position with a split keyboard you have the luxury to adapt... And I haven't seen people claiming that it is the holy grail, just that it is better. Many otholinear keyboard are in a grid, yes. I guess mostly because it is easy, aesthetics and it fits everyone as good/bad. Many keyboards ha…

I don't have huge hand issues due to ergonomics, but I have experienced some.

I have tried most of what is out there: Kinesis Advantage, Maltron, Kinesis Freestyle, Matias Ergo Pro, Microsoft Sculpt, several Vortex...

Paradoxically, my best experience is with an Apple Magic Keyboard 2 (and I use Linux). I think that's because it's tiny, so I can move my hands and use mostly index and thumb fingers. Plus, actuation force is so light. Yet depth is acceptable. This is not a butterfly switch. A great side effect is tiny latency [1].

I also enjoy using the Magic Trackpad, which now works quite well in Linux. Scrolling using a finger gesture is very ergonomic compared to mouse wheels or even trackballs. At least for me. It promotes position variability.

Of course, these Magic Keyboard scissor switches are much more fragile than any mechanical one. In 4 or 5 years of intense use keys start falling apart. That's my experience with an equivalent keyboard in a MacBook Air. So, shortly, I will try to assemble a split keyboard with more shallow mechanical switches, inspired by the Magic Keyboard experience.

[1] https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#46

Post by qwsxyh »

thrwaway442 wrote: post #34

Now seems like a good time to ask: does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy? Are our ears in the loop, consciously or not? A family member had a mechanical keyboard with a cherry mx switch and I tried it out with an online typing test I'd tried before. I could type about 20% faster than usual, which is already way up there. I easily hit 135+ in several segments[1], which is…

> does the loud, audible click of a mechanical keyboards increase the user's accuracy?

I am consistently 30wpm slower on my mech than I am on my laptop keyboard. I heavily regret buying this keyboard, even.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#47

Post by wwright »

bsdubernerd wrote: post #29
EL_Loco wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The split keyboards and ortholinear keys aren't that much better. They're mostly ideas about what would be better ergonomically, but they haven't been as thoroughly thought out as they seem. For the split keyboards, look at the whole of human history and tell me, out of the hundreds of thousands of years of tool use all the way back to the stone age, how many of those tasks were done with your arms set straight out i…

Are you kidding, right? Some people have a natural predisposition to issues such as carpal tunnel and don't need to use a keyboard at all to exacerbate the problem. Traditional keyboards are simply not great for a lot of reasons. I experimented with tons of different keyboards and keyboard layouts mostly out of curiosity. You don't need to go far to feel the difference: microsoft curved keyboards are already much bet…

The Advantage has been updated into the Advantage II (I have two and adore them ). One of the big changes is the function keys, if that is ever of interest to you.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#48

Post by jacobolus »

_ph_ wrote: post #39
nixpulvis wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny you don't hear most pianists complaining about a need for a better piano layout. And they exist... http://www.altkeyboards.com/ The biggest value in QWERTY keyboards is that everyone can use them. It's a standard, and most of the information about it being intentionally designed to "slow you down" is false. I care about the quality of my keyboard and how it feels in the same way I care about how my piano keys f…

If you compare a piano with a standard keyboard, there are a lot of differences. The problem with the standard keyboard is, that for touch-typing, the hands need to be angled very unnaturally, as they have to be close together, yet lined up in an almost parallel position. The only way to achive that is to flex your wrists, and that is where a lot of stress originates from. A piano is very wide, and you often have you…

The piano keyboard is pretty poorly designed from a pure user interface standpoint; its design is mostly dictated by the direct mechanical connection to a big bunch of parallel strings.

Tons of pianists get RSI, which can seriously impact their careers. It is important for serious musicians to figure out a piano technique which does not require putting too much static load on any of the joints.

An improved piano keyboard could help quite a bit, but it’s pretty hard to change piano keyboard layouts, since there are several centuries of repertoire built up around the current one, and pianos are very large, expensive, and difficult to modify.

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#49

Post by mruts »

I’ve wanted to make a keyboard, but I’m not sure it’s possible to make something materially better than the kinesis advantage. I switched to it 10 years after my hands would feel numb after typing.

I think I might have some problem other people don’t, but even for normal people, I find it hard to believe that a kinesis wouldn’t be better for them as well.

I’ve seen some split diy keyboards, but none of them have the great concave wells kinesis does. Also the kinesis has macros, key remapping, and easy switching between Dvorak and QWERTY. Being able to type your password with one button is super cool!

Re: Anatomy of a Mechanical Keyboard (2018)

#50

Post by jandeboevrie »

aasasd wrote: post #2

You'd think that with the DIY freedom people would be making Kinesis Advantages and slapping touchpads in the middle. But no, somehow it's the same old flat boards for arms that grow out of the chest and fingers that extend out of the hand instead of rotating on joints; with the typewriters' staggered layout that makes no sense on electronic keyboards. Only now they're a couple centimeters higher so the wrists are ev…

Here's my take on five years of split keyboards:

https://raymii.org/s/articles/Split_keyboards_a_five_year_re...

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