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Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

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Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AFAIK, Airbus has stockpiled huge amounts of legacy CPUs in climate controlled conditions. Boeing must have done the same

Was really curious as to what Airbus was using, thanks for this! Why not just use the latest CPUs though? I can't imagine the cost would be relatively significant in the greater scheme of things. Are the legacy CPU's really better for this use-case?

>Are the legacy CPU's really better for this use-case?

Yes. Legacy CPU's have the advantage of years and years of testing. Newer CPU's are not as reliable for safety-critical systems inasmuch as not all the kinks have been worked out, and there may be catastrophic bugs in newer designs that won't be discovered until mass deployment on consumer markets.

Meltdown and Spectre have sent shock-waves through the safety-computing industry. I wouldn't want to fly on any plane that is running on the latest-generation Intel chips - they're just not settled yet.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#42

Simple question: Why doesn't Boeing upgrade to i386 for their new planes? I heard it's available for aerospace applications.

Simple speculation: The software makes heavy use of 80286 protected mode and its quirks, which in an embedded hi-rel environment is fine. An areospace 80386 doesn't necessarily have higher throughput (remember, these are in-order-execution architectures), if run at the same clockrate. And you probably can't simply increase the clockrate, since some timing may depend on the CPU clock, due to busy-loop waiting, or some…

A batch of CPUs of 286 complexity on a more modern process can't be that high compared to the development of a new aircraft (which the MAX kind of is).

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#43
post #2

Could this be considered unacknowledged technical debt?

Definitely - it's important to keep in mind that from an engineering perspective, the 737 has probably already reached EOL, and Boeing has been considering to develop a replacement for years (Boeing Y1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Yellowstone_Project), but that was delayed until Airbus forced their hand with the A320 neo, so they decided to offer a (as it now looks) "quick & dirty" upgrade of the 737 to keep it competitive. So upgrading the flight computers was probably out of the question with the given development time.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#44
post #6

Simple question: Why doesn't Boeing upgrade to i386 for their new planes? I heard it's available for aerospace applications.

I don’t have evidence, but most likely, it is to avoid the related costs and risks of certification of this « new » CPU for its intended usage. Not only the CPU but all the software stack needs to be re-proven safe, including compilers and test tools. Note: this is not necessarily a stupid decision.

A simpler solution would be to use the same CPU done with a slightly newer process to allow a higher clock rate. That would ease the recertification process.

If you think they are at best 40 MHz 286 parts, the best that was available by then, running software derived from previous releases that ran on slower chips, there is plenty of room for improvement.

IIRC, you can get a modern 65816 (the 16-bit descendant of the 6502) in 300+ MHz. And I wouldn't expect it to be on a cutting edge process.

That considered, it's entirely possible most of the time is being consumed by reading the sensors. In that case, the sensor communication would need to be upgraded and recertified.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#45

Simple question: Why doesn't Boeing upgrade to i386 for their new planes? I heard it's available for aerospace applications.

Forget about upgrading - they could just press the Turbo button on that 286. That's what it's there for!

On my boxes, pressing the Turbo button donwclocked them to make Zaxxon playable.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#46
post #29
post #12

Does this mean that one of the reasons MCAS relied on a single sensor could be the already saturated CPU? Mindblowing.

I thought the extra sensor was an optional upgrade?...

No, that was the AoA indicator in the cockpit. The second AoA sensor was always there, MCAS just didn't consult it.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#47
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely false. Stop spreading disinformation. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is not inherently stable, has relaxed stability, etc. Fact: it's very much inherently stable. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is easier to stall than other planes. Fact: no it isn't. The pitch-up characteristic of the MAX 8 is less strong than of e.g. the 757 and that plane flies just fine. The actual problem with the MAX 8 is that Boeing added MCAS to al…

> I am continuously astounded that even on HN people are focusing on news cycle bullshit about inherent instability instead of the actual issues with Boeing/FAA that caused this situation. How is it surprising that people are sceptical of claimed native flight characteristics after the way Boeing has handled communications after the crashes? I don't think that there are any independent facts around, even airline pilo…

Skeptical, absolutely! But it doesn't help to make up new facts.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#48

As has been discussed on HN, this whole 737 MAX flaw is not a software problem. Boeing wants you to believe it is. The flaw is actually a physical design problem of the aircraft. Even if the software were to work perfectly, the plane is still flawed. The only real fix is not to fly the 737 MAX.

This is entirely false. Stop spreading disinformation. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is not inherently stable, has relaxed stability, etc. Fact: it's very much inherently stable. Myth: the 737 MAX 8 is easier to stall than other planes. Fact: no it isn't. The pitch-up characteristic of the MAX 8 is less strong than of e.g. the 757 and that plane flies just fine. The actual problem with the MAX 8 is that Boeing added MCAS to al…

Ironically, I believe that your information is also inaccurate. MCAS is required in order to meet federal airworthiness requirements. Without it, in certain flight conditions the back-pressure on the control yoke gets less as the yoke is pulled further back. It's like over-steer in a car, and is simply not allowed. Yes, the plane is dynamically stable; if you leave the yoke in one position it won't pitch up even more. However, the forces must be corrected somehow, regardless of type rating concerns.

"The 737 MAX was a bit too easy to pull into a stall when flying with high AoA and making abrupt maneuvers. The larger engines for the MAX hung further forward from the wing, added a destabilizing aerodynamic area ahead of the center of gravity, destabilizing the pitch moment curve at high AoA.

Boeing and the certification authority, FAA, decided added margins was called for. Boeing added a pitch augmentation at high AoA called Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, MCAS.

The aircraft should trim nose down to increase the stick force needed once it passed into the light grey area where the base aircraft had a region of less stability. Before the augmentation, the pilot felt if the aircraft wanted to fly into the stall, it got easier to increase the AoA after 12°AoA. With the augmentation the felt extra force was the same for the first and last part of the curve before the maximum lift was achieved at stall (and stall warning kicked in)." [0]

The manner of the fix (MCAS transparently pushing the nose down) was designed to avoid pilot retraining and thus keep the same type rating.

Edit: The fact that the 737-Max needs a handling tweak is not a failure. Modern planes have all kinds of these tweaks, whether aerodynamic (such as strakes), mechanical (stick shakers) or enabled in software. As the cited article continues: "So far so good. It's common an aircraft’s flight control system has fixes to stability margin changes in different parts of the flight envelope." The problem is that Boeing had a pretty severe collapse of its systems engineering regime.

"The implementation for the 737 MAX had two problems, however:

- The fault checking of the triggering AoA signal was not rigorous enough. This problem has been discussed a lot. No need to add anything.

- The judgment the pilots would identify a problem with the augmentation as a trim runaway and shut the trim off was wrong. Why the pilots didn’t see MCAS rouge actions as a trim runaway is poorly understood."

(The article was published in February. Since then lots of information has come to light about how MCAS determinedly fought correction, and the huge mental and physical loads imposed on the pilots.)

Edit 2: FAA regulation mandating increasing elevator forces for all transport aircraft: FAR §25.253 High-speed characteristics, (a) Speed increase and recovery characteristics, (3):

With the airplane trimmed at any speed up to VMO/MMO [maximum operating airspeed], there must be no reversal of the response to control input about any axis at any speed up to VDF/MDF [maximum airspeed demonstrated in testing]. Any tendency to pitch, roll, or yaw must be mild and readily controllable, using normal piloting techniques. When the airplane is trimmed at VMO/MMO, the slope of the elevator control force versus speed curve need not be stable at speeds greater than VFC/MFC [maximum control airspeed], but there must be a push force at all speeds up to VDF/MDF and there must be no sudden or excessive reduction of elevator control force as VDF/MDF is reached. [1]

[0] https://leehamnews.com/2019/02/08/bjorns-corner-pitch-stabil...

[1] https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:1.0.1.3.11#se1...

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#49
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know military jets to have unstable flight characteristics to get advantages in maneuverability that need an operating flight computer. But I have problems accepting this fact for civilian planes, especially if the manufacturer just wanted to save development costs. Because you could simply design a more stable plane. Not trivial, but also not impossible.

Yep. Military jets also crash a lot.

I mean it would just be an additional layer of safety. Didn't find my ejection seat on the last flight I took.

Another commenter actually said that it isn't really true that the plane is inherently unstable. If so, the error was probably with regulations about classification and Boeing wanting to take a shortcut.

Re: Boeing's software fix for the 737 Max overwhelms the plane's computer

#50
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a software system has to be designed to make up for aircraft design problems, namely the too large engines that break the limits for ground clearance in the normal 737NG config, then the mentioned issues are not "entirely false" and "disinformation". Boeing needed to counter the A320neo and they needed to take shortcuts that ended up killing people. I wouldn't be surprised if this were management failure and the a…

> they needed to take shortcuts that ended up killing people. No. They chose to take shortcuts.

I stand corrected.
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