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Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

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Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#41
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Symbian (you can still buy handsets), QNX, L4, INTEGRITY OS, GenodeOS, muen, Fuchsia. Then you have the hybrid ones from Apple, Android with Treble (classical Linux drivers are referring to as legacy driver on the documentation) and Windows is kind of hybrid as well. As of Catalina, Apple was very clear that the long term roadmap for their OSes is to move all drivers and kernel extensions into userspace, which will b…

That is fascinating. So is everyone moving to be more microkernel-y? It's anyone actually transitioning to a more monolithic system?

It's a natural evolution of any system - monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#42
post #35
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? If it's such a great example of a multi server, microkernel based os why isn't it used for everything that needs to be secure? I've been hearing QNX as the one word rebuttal for why is not getting traction for 15 years. Still hasn't got traction, afaict.

Ah being one of the most used OS in embedded deployments across the world isn't getting traction, nice try. What about your Intel CPU being at the mercy of Minix 3 to validate its execution state, better?

Actually no.

These are small os's, they're great and useful. There are others. My former, now banrkupt, employers claim L4 code I contributed to is running on over a billion phones. is uTron, eCos etc still dominant in that space?

This is not showing the touted benefits of microkernel based, multiserver operating systems. This is not a secure operating system, this is not a robust operating system, this is not self-healing drivers. Is very small, monolithic a better description of what these are?

Do something like spin up a web-server on a multi server OS and demonstrate it's very hard to hack compared to apache on linux. Make it convincing enough so people use it. DJB did this with qmail and it really is convincing. How long have mircorkernel proponents been talking up improved security, robustness and resilience? 25 years? More? So we've had time and a mountain of engineering resources, including some of my own. It's reasonable to ask to see it. If we can't, it's reasonable to ask why not yet. It really is reasonable to ask.

In my opinion it's a sign of weakness to simply belittle anyone who does. But hey, this is a weekend microkernel HN story perhaps mostly read by the microkernel faithful so reasonable may not be the way forward, easier to just to act as though it's somehow completely unreasonable. Because anyone who hitches their wagon to the next big thing desperately wants it to succeed, and why not? Promotion is important for mindshare and so on. I have sympathy but I think Feynmann summed it up correctly:

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled."

I'll say it again so the point isn't lost:

I would love to see those benefits in the wild. I really, really would.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#45
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is fascinating. So is everyone moving to be more microkernel-y? It's anyone actually transitioning to a more monolithic system?

It's a natural evolution of any system - monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc.

> monoliths are ok only as long as you don't need much of reliability, security, productivity, cooperation, etc

As a supporter of microkernels I feel this is more a list of side effects. I'd put it this way: monoliths are ok so long as any critical code stays very small and comprehensible in it's entirety by an individual. It's also respectful of things that are not microkernels.

Good microkernels designs operate on the same principle, to achieve reliability and security they keep their critical code very small. It's not invulnerable to bugs, but it is well understood that minimising this surface area is the first step in minimising bugs, the secondary effect is also focusing attention due to minimising total lines of critical code. Microkernels are an attempt to take this to an absolute minimum by adding a layer of abstraction that makes otherwise critical code non-critical.

As a mere enthusiast I feel like this is the most useful lesson to take away from microkernels in other software, not triple redundancy or fancy reincarnation servers, but the fact that scale breeds complexity breeds bugs. Making sure the critical parts remain lean and inspectable helps a great deal in all software even when the separation is not as strict.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#46
post #4

> Debian GNU/Hurd is currently available for the i386 architecture with about 80% of the Debian archive, and more to come! Does Hurd still not support amd64?!

From https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq/64-bit.html > There are currently no plan for 64-bit userland, but there are plans for 64-bit kernelland with 32-bit userland, which will notably permit to efficiently make use of more than 2 GiB memory and provide 4 GiB userland addressing space. Work on this is currently in the master-x86_64 and port-amd64 branches for GNU Mach. > That being said, you can always run a 32-b…

I don't really understand how all this stuff works at the kernel level, but if you have a 64-bit kernel what would prevent you from also having 64-bit user programs?

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#47
post #42
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah being one of the most used OS in embedded deployments across the world isn't getting traction, nice try. What about your Intel CPU being at the mercy of Minix 3 to validate its execution state, better?

Actually no. These are small os's, they're great and useful. There are others. My former, now banrkupt, employers claim L4 code I contributed to is running on over a billion phones. is uTron, eCos etc still dominant in that space? This is not showing the touted benefits of microkernel based, multiserver operating systems. This is not a secure operating system, this is not a robust operating system, this is not self-h…

To me it looks like you have some issues pending with L4 folks, that's alright.

Meanwhile the industry will keep on slowly adopting micro-kernel inspired best practices, even if you don't see any benefit in doing so.

Now hop to reading a bit more about Driver Kit on Catalina.

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#48
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From https://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/faq/64-bit.html > There are currently no plan for 64-bit userland, but there are plans for 64-bit kernelland with 32-bit userland, which will notably permit to efficiently make use of more than 2 GiB memory and provide 4 GiB userland addressing space. Work on this is currently in the master-x86_64 and port-amd64 branches for GNU Mach. > That being said, you can always run a 32-b…

I don't really understand how all this stuff works at the kernel level, but if you have a 64-bit kernel what would prevent you from also having 64-bit user programs?

There is quite a lot of surface area between a program and the kernel - C library, dynamic linker, system call interface, memory layout, droves of permission and sanity checking logic etc. that would need to be updated too. A 64 bit kernel is a first step

Re: Debian GNU/Hurd 2019 Released

#49
post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well apart from actually building and researching how to build an OS. This stems from a very very deep seated itch. The answer is "because we can". It's volunteer engineering; because they can! Also it is not possible to know how the fruits of innovation might materialise. There might be achievments coming from this in a serendipitous way. The Hurd is a process.

After the news about pip being maintained by 5 people, I wonder how many are working on hurd. (As a grown adult, I also envy and more than a little humbled by their ability to devote time to it.)

Sounds more like a realization, than news. It is very similar in most of open source.
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