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Hillbillies Need No Elegy

bittersoutherner.com

41–50 of 116 posts

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#41
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is seriously not that big a difference between the reading level of random comments on the internet and the reading level of the New Yorker, or of the average thinkpiece. Self-styled intellectuals love to pretend that they are writing in a sophisticated secret code language, but that hasn't been true since they quit Latin.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily.

The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the number of words in sentences so they're obviously not perfect, in particular they do not measure the use of rare vocabulary or references nor of difficult content.

I tested the OP and found: Flesch reading ease 53.2 (fairly difficult)

Gunning Fog 11 (hard to read)

Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 10.1 grade

Coleman-Liau 10th grade

SMOG Index 9.6 grade

ARI 9.5 grade

Linsear Write Formula 11.4 grade

Where the references to grade are to American school grades. In other words this text can be read by average American 10th graders without difficulty.

I ran an article from the current New Yorker through as well (the one on Basquiat) and that came out as 11th grade reading level.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#43
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

While it sounds like your measurements are more attuned to native speakers, I am not so sure that any high schooler could easily pass a C2 exam. Here is an example C2 practice exercise that doesn't seem all that far off from something you might see in the SAT: https://www.examenglish.com/cpe/cpe_reading_part1.htm

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#44
> The room was packed with intellectuals, artists, donors, students, the president of West Virginia University and the dean of its law school.

Nary a coal miner, nor axeman to be found in this ivory tower meeting.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>C2 I wonder if there is a similar scale for cartoons, and if (inscrutable) New Yorker cartoons are at D1 or higher.

From all the US satirical cartoons I have seem they seem rather crude and tame compared to the UK and still rely rather old tropes that always seem to require labelling "oh look its the cat with $ signs for eyes and labelled "wall street" whereas in the UK a cartoon might make a reference to a cartoon from 50-60-70 years ago and you would be expected to understand the reference with out labelling

Do you have examples of these sorts of cartoons? I've never seen one so I can't imagine what they're like.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#46
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

The CEFR is intended to measure the proficiency of foreign language learners and not measure the sophistication of native language speakers. Everyone that speaks English as a first language would pass a C2 level examination very easily. The standard ways to measure text complexity in English for native speakers are the Flesch-Kincaid readability and grade level tests. These depend on the length of words and on the nu…

I doubt that the average native English speaker would pass a C2 level exam (even if you only consider the US and UK, as there are many other countries that speak English (for example India). While they probably won't have any problems with the grammar, C2 uses a lot of vocabularity that you won't be familiar with if you don't read much.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#47
This is important, not because of Appalachia but because of art itself.

As a history buff, I have a difficult time watching many "based on a true story" movies or movies claiming to represent some important person or event in history. It's for the same reason: people consume information through narrative, and narrative forces reality into predefined tracks. This means that any art form claiming to represent a people, region, person, or event must necessarily be lying to you. The better the art the more likely the lies are big ones.

And so storytellers are forced to lie, both by drastically-reducing scope and by smoothing out the edges. Then they consolidate characters, generalize over things that are not part of the narrative. They find a hero. They bump the contrast up a bit to make the narrative consumption more enjoyable.

I love this, I love art and storytelling, but it means that there are great masses of people who don't know jack squat about a ton of topics that they think they do.

I grew up here. I've traveled all over, spending quite a bit of time in SF and other very cosmopolitan places, but this is home. If I were forced to scope it down, I'd probably start with the mountains, then the coal mines, then the Scots-Irish cultural backdrop. The writer made an astute point when they mentioned all the outsiders passing through and screwing us over in various ways for their own selfish reasons. That's been a persistent theme, but it is slowly dying off. There's also the tent revival culture, but that's also going away.

The only other generality I'd add if I were scoping down a story about this place is the stereotype of the ornery eccentric. This character has been played up for comic relief over the years, many times making them out to be simpletons. Instead, there are a lot of PhD-level folks who just don't give a damn about society and don't want to. They're nice enough. They just want to be left alone. You find that plenty of other places as well, but Appalachia has a long history of those folks and we tend to cherish them, even if we're making fun of them.

Andrew Jackson almost beat a man to death with his cane after he tried to assassinate him (His gun misfired. He grabbed a backup. It also misfired. Jackson commenced to beating on him and had to be pulled off). After the Civil War, Ewell went back to his home, picked back up his law practice, and started writing books about what a bunch of jackasses all those people who misunderstood the war were. We always wave at people here: the best way to tell if people are from far away is when they don't wave. Had a neighbor once that when I waved at him he would make various obscene gestures and curse. He just wanted to be left alone.

I wouldn't live anywhere else, and it's not because I haven't tried out a bunch of other places. There's something about the mountains that keep calling me back. I don't know what.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#48

This is important, not because of Appalachia but because of art itself. As a history buff, I have a difficult time watching many "based on a true story" movies or movies claiming to represent some important person or event in history. It's for the same reason: people consume information through narrative, and narrative forces reality into predefined tracks. This means that any art form claiming to represent a people,…

Thanks for sharing your experiences. I've never visited Appalachia, and I'm afraid my views are filtered through popular media. But even if a TV show like "Justified" (I've seen the first 3 seasons) bends to narrative constraints, I felt it took its setting and the people living there seriously. I'm sure I'm missing a lot though.

Another piece of media that I felt was a strong statement about Appalachia is Ever South[1] by Drive-by Truckers.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwM2yd2QZ2Q - live rendition at KEXP

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#49
post #35
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New Yorker is a classic example of higher level English that is far above the level of “random comments on the internet”. The typical New Yorker article is CEFRL C2 [1] or ILR 3/3+ [2]. Most internet comments are at CEFRL A2 or so, with some (often faulty) more thoughtful responses at B1 or B2. Said another way, your median high schooler can read and understand a typical internet comment, but the median high scho…

> It will sometimes cause less proficient readers to take away substantial misunderstandings about the contents of the article. The most prolific example of the reading level mismatches causing trouble is Paul Krugman's August 2002 column: Dubya's Double Dip? https://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/02/opinion/dubya-s-double-di... ? The famous sentence from the article: > To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snap…

Maybe Krugman’s writing is just actually very unclear. “Difficult” writing is to be avoided, not praised.

Re: Hillbillies Need No Elegy

#50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>C2 I wonder if there is a similar scale for cartoons, and if (inscrutable) New Yorker cartoons are at D1 or higher.

From all the US satirical cartoons I have seem they seem rather crude and tame compared to the UK and still rely rather old tropes that always seem to require labelling "oh look its the cat with $ signs for eyes and labelled "wall street" whereas in the UK a cartoon might make a reference to a cartoon from 50-60-70 years ago and you would be expected to understand the reference with out labelling

New Yorker cartoons are not political cartoons. They are general humour, albeit of a sort that might strike most readers as highbrow.
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