Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way • Hacker News Board

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#41

Post by User23 » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:10 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #31

clairity wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare. i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")? or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle…

Everyone is all for fairness and equality but, as is becoming increasingly clear, "social justice" as a movement has little, if anything, to do with actual fairness or equality. Oberlin College's misbehavior may be at the extremum but it is far from the only example of this. Even on as pro-left a site as HN, people are realizing that this movement is more of a problem than a force for good and that one can be a liber…

SJWism is a revanchist ideology and posture and as such it will never lead to anything other than negative sum outcomes. Since the readership here is well above average in intelligence, it’s unsurprising that a destructive ideology is met with some skepticism.

Edit: Why on earth is this flagged? The article we're discussing is exactly a negative sum outcome.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#42

Post by 0xB31B1B » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:11 PM UTC

high_derivative wrote: post #29

DanBC wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People misunderstand the concept of privilege. You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups. Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.

Evidence needed, strongly. There is an incredible push happening at all levels of e.g. STEM, tech companies, everywhere, to get women. They receive special support, scholarships, extra application tracks, extra programs, preferred hiring, and boys are falling more and more behind. Are you really trying to say that the Harvard-Stanford-Oxbridge woman is held back compared to, say, the plumber's son (no offence, a high…

Not who you are replying to, but in general I would say that the things you point (extra help women receive right now) are in general working, and that the fact that they are working is supports the fact that they should continue. This doesn’t mean that men should not also receive targeted help, as should anyone who is disadvantaged, whether through socioeconomic status, race, disability, or otherwise. Solving problems that classes of people have on a class level and making those classes of people more successful is a good thing, and we should be doing more of it. There is a huge issue now where young men, especially those of low SES are not encouraged to or given the right pathways to find success and I see the wheels slowly start turning on social movement to facilitate positive change on that front as well, especially starting in early childhood education.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#43

Post by thatoneuser » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:12 PM UTC

Good. There are far too many sitting comfortably in their ivory towers these days indoctrinating kids turning into adults as their personal army. There's too much hatred of certain races/genders (typically from what I see its white/men, but by no means are those two groups the only ones who are victims) that gets ignored.

Many years ago (tho not that many) blacks would have their businesses routinely ransacked, protested, and strong armed out. I don't doubt that it still happened to this day. We learned about that in civics and history - the atrocity of racially based attacks in the past to financially ruin others. Now it's 2019 and the very same institutions that led those concerns are themselves causing the same problem.

This can't go on. Free speech is fine. If you have an opinion and you want to state it - then state it. But when you weaponize your speech to ruin others, especially when those others are merely doing the most basic thing they ought to (ie, protecting their business and livelihood of themselves and their employees) - you deserve to be punished. There's no room in a progressed society for small groups to usurp control beyond legal frameworks. To establish witch hunts and expect that you'll get away with it.

I hope the individuals at the University also face financial and legal hardship for their actions. It's despicable.

Edit: At this point I expect downvotes for speaking honestly and truthfully. The very people down voting are the ones who promote the hateful rhetoric this college exhibited.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#44

Post by high_derivative » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:14 PM UTC

not_a_moth wrote: post #40

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

From my own experience, no, at the top universities the upper middle class demographic is far more concerned about lining up high paying jobs, networking, and/or working on their general social status than any sort of political activism at all. The activism comes from other groups, if even then. Maybe at small liberal arts colleges or less elite institutions your viewpoint might be true, but I can't speak for that.

Just to clarify, I have spent the better part of the last decade at one of the institutions in my response. I have seen generations of students come and go. Your experience may differ but at least where I am, the qualitative change is this: earlier this decade, it's been really only small groups.

Now, with students born after 2000 and having grown up fully immersed in social media being on campus, what would have been relatively niche wokeness in 2010 is 'common sense' for many. Including extremely low tolerance for view point diversity.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#45

Post by oska » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

zuminator wrote: post #18

The problem I always have with stories like this is the context. 1) The writer breathlessly warns that "campuses across the country" are succumbing to mob rule. How many campuses is that? Sure, we "know" from the internet that this problem is rampant, just like we "know" that other hot-button issues such as shooting of unarmed black teens, the incel movement, anchor babies, etc. have reached epidemic proportions. But…

This is your paraphrase:

> The writer breathlessly warns that "campuses across the country" are succumbing to mob rule.

And this is the actual sentence from the article from which you took the quote:

> As on other campuses across the country, these protests are encouraged by an array of faculty members and ever accommodating administrators.

Not exactly a fair paraphrase. And I found the article's tone quite level; hardly 'breathless'.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#46

Post by mythrwy » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:17 PM UTC

not_a_moth wrote: post #40

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

From my own experience, no, at the top universities the upper middle class demographic is far more concerned about lining up high paying jobs, networking, and/or working on their general social status than any sort of political activism at all. The activism comes from other groups, if even then. Maybe at small liberal arts colleges or less elite institutions your viewpoint might be true, but I can't speak for that.

Reading this I can't help but wonder where people graduating from Oberlin get jobs. Maybe as political campaign people or marketing or something?

Just picturing someone walking into a large cement plan for an interview. "Why yes, I do believe I can pull this company into the black within 3 quarters. As you see I have a degree from Oberlin college...".

Point being, graduating from there seems it could be not a positive signal but rather a huge red flag for any company engaged in productive pursuits.

Like the person has been pre-trained to be aggrieved and look for issues and possibly sue over the smallest of slights. At least that's what would cross my mind as an interviewer.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#47

Post by Nasrudith » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:18 PM UTC

Really I think the issue isn't activism per say but how they are doing it - demagoguic and tribalistic instead of even a coherent philosophy or let alone a logical one. There is a lack of reflection before or after for actions and just concern about how they feel.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#48

Post by clairity » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:20 PM UTC

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #31

clairity wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

interesting. opposition to "social justice" signals an opposition to fairness and equality, and theoretically should be rare. i wonder if it's the strain of opposition that sees it as zero-sum and resists (i.e., "if things get fairer for the disadvantaged, then i, as an advantaged person, must necessarily lose something")? or the strain that resists social normalization (e.g., i should be free to offend and belittle…

Everyone is all for fairness and equality but, as is becoming increasingly clear, "social justice" as a movement has little, if anything, to do with actual fairness or equality. Oberlin College's misbehavior may be at the extremum but it is far from the only example of this. Even on as pro-left a site as HN, people are realizing that this movement is more of a problem than a force for good and that one can be a liber…

but what is "the movement"? the situation here seems like small-time stupidity and jerkiness (of behavior), not a movement.

just to note, group-labeling people tends to undermine openness and short-circuits revelation, so i'd like to avoid that (especially dichotomies like left-right and liberal-conservative).

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#49

Post by NotSammyHagar » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:23 PM UTC

The tl;dr seems to be an underage black person tried to buy wine, apparently stole wine, then there was a fight with the owner's son. There was a demonstration that was probably based on an unclear understanding of the events. So people over-reacted to events, yes they were stupid to do. But you shouldn't use this as an excuse to clutch one's pearls and conclude colleges have lost their way. This looks like a cya activity after the true(-er?) facts came out.

Re: Oberlin College case shows how universities are losing their way

#50

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Jun 15, 2019, 9:26 PM UTC

not_a_moth wrote: post #40

high_derivative wrote: post #19

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held b…

From my own experience, no, at the top universities the upper middle class demographic is far more concerned about lining up high paying jobs, networking, and/or working on their general social status than any sort of political activism at all. The activism comes from other groups, if even then. Maybe at small liberal arts colleges or less elite institutions your viewpoint might be true, but I can't speak for that.

[deleted]