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No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

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Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#41

Post by kradroy »

claudiulodro wrote: post #12

Assuming whatever you're trying to do is a good idea, my method is to just write a "heads-up"-type message and just go for it. For example, "I'm going to do foo. If anyone has any concerns or anything, please let me know". This covers your ass, provides a discussion/feedback area, and lets you actually get things done without a lengthy bike-shedding process. One important lesson I have learned in my career is that fo…

We used to have an engineer who used this maneuver. He abused it because it was effective. We do have an issue on our team with engineers being indifferent to new ideas, and our manager loves consensus. Regardless, this engineer thought his ideas were always "good ideas." They weren't. He was eventually chewed out by our manager because he was becoming a passive-aggressive tyrant. He left the company soon after that.

Nevertheless it goes to show that fortune does favor the bold, but that fortune might be at another company.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#42

Post by noisy_boy »

In my experience, hierarchy (explicit/implicit) is necessary to conclude differences which are grey. In fact, there are cases where I have seen one side make their points logically enough that they are basically black & white and the other side sticking their guns saying "good points, but I think I would prefer to go ...". One might rightfully say the issue is deeper but we don't always have the luxury of choosing the most well fitting team. Somebody with the authority (granted/earned) has to step in and say "I have heard all sides and this is what we are going to do". Saves endless bickering over never ending e-mail chains.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#43

Post by fapjacks »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

While I agree with something of an abstraction of what they're saying, when I read things like this, it's hard for me to see anything but a person that wants to hijack the tyranny for themselves.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#44

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

A few years ago I joined a company with "self-organizing" teams, which have many similarities to "structureless".

It was an awful experience, for me at least. Many important choices were made by people trying to avoid ruffling the feathers of the least-mature team member.

My woes were likely compounded by being mildly affected by Asperger syndrome: First, I have an innate preference for clear organization and structure. Second, it took tremendous mental/emotional energy to navigate the social/interpersonal minefield tied to every technical decision.

Perhaps my experience was unusual, but I cannot understand the thinking that leads upper-management to think this approach is a good idea.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#45

Post by WC3w6pXxgGd »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

> A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a smokescreen for the strong or the lucky to establish unquestioned hegemony over others

Is the implication that this is avoided within a structured group/society?

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#46

Post by DoofusOfDeath »

fapjacks wrote: post #43
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

While I agree with something of an abstraction of what they're saying, when I read things like this, it's hard for me to see anything but a person that wants to hijack the tyranny for themselves.

I've seen / experienced several train-wrecks caused by flat / self-organizing teams (see my sibling comment). In those catastrophes, I would have been glad for almost anybody to take on the role of team leader / manager.

So I'd be reluctant to assume the argument for structure is motived by personal ambition.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#47

Post by js8 »

SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

What about democracy? It is a clear rule (one person one vote) and yet it is not hierarchical.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#48

Post by crankylinuxuser »

Our hackerspace runs in a "flat manner".

In reality, there are people that are, in a Animal Farm sense, "more equal" than others.

It also means there's very little responsibility for our shared space, little responsibility for operations, other than what individuals take on.

It also means that avenues that we could do (work more with First Robotics, or review if what we're doing is the best for our mission) is shouted down by said "more equal" members.

Sadfully, to that end, changes that I believe would be better can't even be discussed. I've quit doing so, and just pay my dues and have my 3d printer there (bed size is 500mm x 500mm x 400mm) along with 3dp equipment. Admittedly, its a sad way for me to "interact", but I'm not one of the 'in' people...

I'd much prefer if we actually had some hierarchy. We don't need to have every position delineated, but a basic framework makes a ton of things clear. Right now, I can't even figure out who knows how to make a static IP in the hackerspace's dhcp table. Someone knows.

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#49

Post by McWobbleston »

pault wrote: post #7
erikpukinskis wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are shadow power structures, but I don't think you are correct that they are necessarily hierarchical.

Isn't hierarchy intrinsic to power?

In my mind power is often innate, while hierarchy arises from exercising power. I wouldn't say there's a hierarchy between two entities until one begins to control the other

Re: No Kings: How Do You Make Good Decisions Efficiently in a Flat Organization?

#50

Post by SolaceQuantum »

js8 wrote: post #47
SolaceQuantum wrote: post #9

I would like to refer to the following - The Tyranny of Structurelessness, originally meant to address the concerns regarding 'flat' organizations. "This means that to strive for a structureless group is as useful, and as deceptive, as to aim at an "objective" news story, "value-free" social science, or a "free" economy. A "laissez faire" group is about as realistic as a "laissez faire" society; the idea becomes a sm…

What about democracy? It is a clear rule (one person one vote) and yet it is not hierarchical.

The essay is not against non-hierarchial organization, but against organizations that claim they are non-hierarchial as a result of 'structurelessness'.
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