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‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

theguardian.com

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Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#41

Post by TheOperator »

From what I could see the teacher discouraging her from going into science after failing a math test was greatly beneficial as she became a successful author. Yet she is resentful that she was never included in the scientific establishment which seemed to be more what she wanted.

Not really the point I was SUPPOSED to get from this article though. I think I was supposed to be angry at sexism for discouraging her from becoming a scientist. She reminds me of how I feel about the cooks who discouraged me from becoming a cook although it was for the best I'm still bitter they said I shouldn't be one.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#42

Post by jodrellblank »

burfog wrote: post #10

You do have the right kind of brain for science. Even healthy brains are desired. https://braindonorproject.org/ https://www.brainsupportnetwork.org/brain-donation/ https://www.alz.org/alzheimers-dementia/research_progress/br... https://hbtrc.mclean.harvard.edu/donate/ I love how the NIH explains things: "As an organ donor, you agree to give your organs to other people to help keep them alive. As a brain donor, your…

"As a brain donor, your brain will be used for research purposes only—it will not be given to another person."

How many people had to ask/worry about that for them to write it? Isaac Arthur's YouTube video on identity[1] includes a comment "if someone transplanted Bob's brain into Joe's body, we would not think of it as Joe-with-Bob's-brain, but rather Bob-with-Joe's-body".

In that sense it might be impossible to give my brain to another person, it would be more like giving me their body; but what if it was only a bit of my brain? If my motor cortex could be transplanted into a stroke victim or a Parkinson's patient, or whatever; writing that down doesn't sound objectionably or identity-breaking.

[1] Science and Futurism with Isaac Arthur, in his "Existential Crisis series" playlist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEyiugDVQ6o&list=PLIIOUpOge0...

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#44

Post by macspoofing »

ifianassa wrote: post #30

I too never thought I was smart enough - in my case, for computers. Nothing to do with my gender. My father bought me my first computer at 10. But, others said that I can't learn programming if I don't know maths, and I was crap at maths. So I didn't learn to program. Not until I went to university, to study computer science, of all things. I was good at language, so I treated programming as a language problem. I lea…

>b) Dont' believe when people say you haven't got what it takes.

Maybe. To play devil's advocate, there are times one should consider that advice. Someone trying to break into performing arts or professional sports may benefit from getting some frank, realistic advice, especially if they don't have the talent or aptitude for the work.

I would also argue there is already too much of the "one should always believe in oneself" pushed by culture - a core message of pretty much every kids TV show since at least the 80s. A more relatable example would be a person investing their life savings in a terrible idea but everyone around them telling them "it's great" and "they should keep going" so as to not hurt their feelings.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#45

Post by treerock »

jodrellblank wrote: post #38
ifianassa wrote: post #30

I too never thought I was smart enough - in my case, for computers. Nothing to do with my gender. My father bought me my first computer at 10. But, others said that I can't learn programming if I don't know maths, and I was crap at maths. So I didn't learn to program. Not until I went to university, to study computer science, of all things. I was good at language, so I treated programming as a language problem. I lea…

Not until I went to university, to study computer science, of all things. I was good at language, so I treated programming as a language problem. Just today I was reading this blog post from someone who loved math, went into programming, and claims that programming isn't math, it's language, and that the image comes from early programmers being mathematicians and the industry hasn't moved on from that image yet: http…

I remember this being a common belief back in the 90s.

At school I knew a guy who was good at maths, obsessed with computers (as in often knowing more than the teachers) but was rejected from the computing course (until his parents complained) because he wasn't doing well in English.

Personally, I believe they were getting confused with English as it was taught (mainly literary appreciation) and Language/Linguistics (as in the grammar/semantics and logic) which wasn't actually taught in (my) high school.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#46

Post by gdy »

xondono wrote: post #23
areoform wrote: post #13

It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…

Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't do math". In fact, for most of my educational life the "top student of the class" has been female, even through engineering and maths. Am I some kind of odd outlier? is the experience on other countries different? I'm genouinly curious.

It's the same with Iran: "70% of Iran’s science and engineering students are women" [0]

[0]https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com...

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#47

Post by xondono »

rsynnott wrote: post #26
xondono wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't do math". In fact, for most of my educational life the "top student of the class" has been female, even through engineering and maths. Am I some kind of odd outlier? is the experience on other countries different? I'm genouinly curious.

I think this stuff actually is pretty regional/local; participation rates by women are much better in some non-Anglosphere countries. Edit: It can also become weirdly specific; participation in computer science and physics remain quite low here (Ireland), say, but I believe most chemistry undergrads are now women.

I was referring way more the prevalence of those type of comments through education. I don't think participation rates are very different than other countries. From my experience (I have a rather weird educational path, so I have anecdotal data on engineering, math & physics undergraduate courses).

Engineering and physics have similar ratios around 10% to 20%, while maths is way higher around 50/50 (the rates for the classes I was taking were actually higher, but that's another story). Chemistry here also is mostly women.

The only hypothesis that fits my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, is that there's quite a difference in the interests of men and women, and that the country differences in enrollment are more a symptom of how the curricula are structured.

For example, Spain does not have CS degrees structured like in the anglosphere, so depending the subfield you intend to work on, you should go to engineering instead. Most of the women I met at engineering would have chosen a CS degree over engineering if there was one. I have seen stark differences too in physics, were the majority of women there wanted to pursue pure theoretical physics with pretty much none of them showing interest in applied physics.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#48

Post by ergo14 »

jakubp wrote: post #31
lruor wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb What do you think girls think and say of boys? This is just stupid (and incorrect) victimism, directed at a gender, when the other one acts the same. Someone using that argument is either 1) completely unaware of the experiences of the other gender or 2) being dishonest.

Not sure what culture you are from, but in Poland at least I have almost never heard girls (or anyone!) say anything particularly bad of that sort to boys, but I sure have heard said a lot to girls. There's definitely still a strong 'boyish' culture where boys can say almost anything they like and it's OK, but girls (for whatever reason) won't. It's not about who's better - it's about what we let people get away with…

I'm also from same country, and I have seen both genders call other stupid when I was a teen.

I have very rarely encountered any hostility towards women in professional environment though.

I you hear that a lot in your environemnt - maybe its time to speak up against it and/or change it for something better.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#49

Post by wvh »

areoform wrote: post #13

It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…

I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women.

Teens' dreams and ideas often get shot down by peers, parents and even teachers. I'm not defending bad behaviour; I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous. Certainly the majority of women I know would not give a lack of intelligence as the reason they didn't go to study CS.

Re: ‘I believed I didn't have the right kind of brain for science’

#50

Post by watwut »

layoutIfNeeded wrote: post #17
areoform wrote: post #13

It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb. Brainless machines of no consequence. That women can't code or contribute much in fields like math. "They just don't have the brain for it." These moments stay with you and they impede you at moments when you need to be free. They push…

Strange, when I was a kid adults had the opposite attitude towards us. Boys were considered inherently mischievous, prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good, while girls were considered rule-abiding, smart and hard-working.

These two actually coexist happily, somehow. Boys are simultaneously assumed prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good and better at math etc. Girls are simultaneously rule-abiding, smart and hard-working, but also a bit dumber and not for math and lazy princesses.

Also, girls are more social and better at relationships, but also cant have by gender good relationship among them as they are destined to be basically bitches.

Boys have totally better relationships among them, but they of course just cant be without physically bullying each other which somehow does not suggest that something is wrong with relationships.

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