What size ‘should’ the global economy be?
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The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
41–50 of 114 posts
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#42> After a reduction in material and energy consumption, which will constrict the economy, there should also be a redistribution of existing wealth, and a transition from a materialistic society to one in which the values are based on simpler lifestyles and unpaid work and activities. So, this movement is communism by another name? I understand that the new bit is the reduction energy consumption and quality of life,…
Once they get to doing communism, both the economy and the population will shrink automatically.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#43I'm amazed it's such a sensitive topic. Some people are litterally angry in the comments out people suggesting degrowth.
Since we have math lovers here, I'll post a fantastic math oriented conf on the topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-QA2rkpBSY&feature=list_othe...
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#44I'm pretty far on the left and used to be active in communist politics (little bit less exceptional here in Europe than across the pond), but I've always been very irritated by these degrowth movements, although a lot of this stuff came out of 'my' political tent.
It's to me reminiscent of the 'deep ecology' folks, who don't pursue environmentalism with the goal of furthering human well-being, but have a quasi religious attitude to nature as if it is a thing in itself. If you want to have a life of leisure and cooperation, you need material progress and abstract away all the nasty and brutish things which is only achievable in an environment of abundance.
Degrowth will produce the exact opposite. Scarcity, tribalism, zero-sum competition and so on.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#45>Degrowth is now a buzz word in left-leaning and academic circles around the world
Ted Kaczynski and other far-right thinkers (e.g. Pentti Linkola) have been advocating for shrinking the economy for decades.
It’s not a left/right issue and one side doesn’t have a monopoly on anti-materialism.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#46They should set an example. Like, go live in a cave. Or at least share bunks in a tiny apartment.
Otherwise, the "movement" is just a bunch of hypocrites who are all about having _other_ people to make sacrifices so they could get more to themselves.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#47An author once came and spoke to my environmental studies class. Of the Club of Rome, he said "Fascinating ideas. They might be right. But try getting elected by promising a shrinking economy." Yeah, not gonna happen. Best to treat growth as a given and work around it, imho.
> "Fascinating ideas. They might be right. But try getting elected by promising a shrinking economy." It sounds like the problem is democracy. What we need is a BDFL.
The world only offers DFLs.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#48What's stopping them? There's tons of empty land in the world. Go find a stream in the forest and live a sustenance-level life. Oh, they want everyone else to be miserable too.
Perhaps you know this already, but they would be outcompeted very quickly and disappear (like the shakers). It’s like how paying extra taxes voluntarily isn’t a substitute for wanting increased taxation.
> they would be outcompeted very quickly and disappear
So would we on a larger scale if they had their way.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#49You can ridicule the specifics, but the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth. I see no reason to think the former is possible, so that leaves the latter. The alternative is some kind of calamity.
> the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth
That's just a narrow-minded false dilemma. There's a (for all practical purposes) infinite universe out there, we have plenty of resources to grow even if we stop recycling.
Re: The degrowth movement wants to intentionally shrink the economy
#50You can ridicule the specifics, but the high-level idea here is spot on. Either you have to decouple economic growth from increased consumption of natural resources, or you have to find a way to have a stable society without economic growth. I see no reason to think the former is possible, so that leaves the latter. The alternative is some kind of calamity.
Attempted mass colonization of the moon and mars might cause massive economic growth with less consumer consumption ?