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Outschooling

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Re: Outschooling

#41

Post by notacoward »

camelNotation wrote: post #34
rootusrootus wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They'll walk away from this better equipped than any of their peers in traditional school. Except for those whose parents also hire expert tutors. It's not like kids going to traditional schools can't also get additional educational opportunities. When you consider how much homeschooling is by parents who are not themselves professional educators, I suspect a hybrid approach works better on average.

Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale. One on one teaching is not remotely the same as teaching in a classroom setting where you have to adapt to multiple learning styles and multiple achievement levels all while using standardized assessment techniques, detailed lesson planning, and classroom management skills. The vast majority of what…

> Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale.

Untrue. Any teacher must be familiar with both the subject matter and basic pedagogy, regardless of whether they're teaching one student or many. Yes, there are additional skills necessary when teaching a larger class, but I think you drastically exaggerate how much of a teacher's job that is.

Re: Outschooling

#42

Post by GuiA »

up_and_up wrote: post #24
charliesharding wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What were the primary motivations for homeschooling? Cultural? Political? Quality? Access? Also how do you go about socializing them? I've been considering it myself

My wife was from a very competitive school district which forced overachievement and I got beat up by bullies in a small town school. Besides the personal anecdotes, 1. we felt like time was passing too quickly and wanted to have them around, we wanted to be together basically. 2. with 3 kids my wife hasnt been able to work (her line of work is not well paying), so it made sense to start homeschooling vs private scho…

It seems like you’ve achieved something great, congrats!

What are your estimated cost per year per child? (Including the aforementioned private teachers etc). It’d be interesting to compare that with the average expenditure per child in your local schooling district (it’s hard to compare directly due to hard to quantify factors like a parent staying home, but it’d still be interesting to see if it’s significantly more/less or not).

Re: Outschooling

#43

Post by OrangeMango »

inetknght wrote: post #4
jaden wrote: post #2

Homeschooling seems like an ideal solution for those with a parent at home to improve their children's academic learning. But it's concerning that those actively involved parents are removed from the public school system.

> it's concerning that those actively involved parents are removed from the public school system. As someone who was homeschooled: it's extremely scary. I've missed out on social experiences and also on actual education and consider myself generally worse-off for it. Consider: Texas permits homeschooling and has effectively zero oversight. How many homeschooling families are also anti-vaxxers or feed into anti-govern…

> Consider: Texas permits homeschooling and has effectively zero oversight.

My children are homeschooled in a major metro area not in Texas. We also have effectively zero oversight. But what does it signify? We have an interest in the success of our children that is far greater than any interest a government has.

I understand that in rural areas this can mean that such children have all but disappeared from view, but where we live the school districts allow homeschool children to participate in afterschool activities (including competitive sports) and a recent change in state law allows for homeschool children to attend a class or two at the local school and then leave for the day, if that is something a parent wants. The park district offers many sports classes in the middle of the day for homeschool kids, forest preserves and state parks offer nature classes, and museums have science and art courses. Private businesses love us, they offer discounts to fill up time slots that would otherwise go empty. The public library is very welcoming and typically allows use of community rooms for free.

A public school classroom with 30+ children in it simply doesn't have the time to offer as much educational opportunity that our children get in half the time, allowing them so much time during the day for play, imagination, and reading or exploring topics of their own choice (we typically have 30-60 library books at home at any one point in time).

Re: Outschooling

#44

Post by camelNotation »

carlob wrote: post #22

I think this is going to be very controversial on the typical HN crowd: maybe too European, or too socialist. However here it goes. Some ten years ago I was convinced that private schools had a right to exist, but that they should never impact the funding of public schools, not even indirectly. Then I discovered that homeschooling was a thing in the US. Now I tend to believe that private schools should not be allowed…

> School is far too important as a social mixer and a way to educate well-rounded citizens to leave it to the whims of parents.

Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society.

> I also strongly believe that parents whose beliefs prevent their kids from getting the medical care they deserve (from refusing transfusions, to refusing vaccines) should get a hard look from social services.

This has nothing to do with homeschooling since many of us homeschool for secular reasons and aren't teaching our children fundamentalism or denying them vaccines/healthcare.

> In general I don't believe that parenthood trumps some things that as a society we consider basic human rights.

You don't have kids. Not that it invalidates your opinion, but you don't. I, as a parent, adapt to society and obey society just like I, as an individual, obey the law. But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears. My responsibilities as a parent precede my responsibility to society. As long as society is not abusive, they mesh well and that isn't an issue. But saying that parenthood doesn't trump society is a slippery slope you really don't want to go down.

> I think most people would agree with me when it comes down to issues like violence, exploitation and child labor, but I think this should extend to the access to healthcare and to a secular education.

Healthcare makes sense, I suppose. But "secular education" assumes the education received in a homeschool context is not secular. On the contrary, many homeschoolers are secular homeschoolers, especially in the upper middle class.

I think you need to do more research on this before you start throwing out uninformed opinions.

Re: Outschooling

#45

Post by carlob »

hawkesnest wrote: post #31
carlob wrote: post #22

I think this is going to be very controversial on the typical HN crowd: maybe too European, or too socialist. However here it goes. Some ten years ago I was convinced that private schools had a right to exist, but that they should never impact the funding of public schools, not even indirectly. Then I discovered that homeschooling was a thing in the US. Now I tend to believe that private schools should not be allowed…

My children receive a secular homeschool education. They score well on standardized tests, interact well with their peers in extracurricular activities, and have healthy and meaningful relationships with other children and adults in their lives. I recognize that there are some in the homeschool "community" who are ruining their children (imho). For the sake of freedom, I accept that there are terrible people in the w…

I'm sure your kids are great, as you are probably well educated and wealthier than the average. Have you ever asked yourself what is the effect of removing your kids for public schools on the less fortunate?

Let me put it another way: most children who have some medical doctor in their extended family don't really need to be visited regularly by a pediatrician. That doesn't really imply that most people who refuse to take their kids to a doctor are in their right mind to do so: a lot of them have some weird belief that might put their kids life at risk. And even if they weren't a majority, but a tiny minority, the law needs to protect that tiny minority even if that means being a bit overbearing on people who have doctors in their families.

Re: Outschooling

#46

Post by ced »

up_and_up wrote: post #30
michaelchisari wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems extraordinarily well-balanced. I'm often skeptical of homeschooling (especially for religious or political reasons), but you've got a great curriculum and motivation.

Thanks! Yeah we feel lucky to have local groups and resources to make this happen. Granted we have also worked hard to get there!

Where are you from? If you mind sharing, could you tell us at least country, and urban/suburban/rural?

Re: Outschooling

#47

Post by camelNotation »

notacoward wrote: post #41
camelNotation wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale. One on one teaching is not remotely the same as teaching in a classroom setting where you have to adapt to multiple learning styles and multiple achievement levels all while using standardized assessment techniques, detailed lesson planning, and classroom management skills. The vast majority of what…

> Professional educators really only need the training and certification because they are dealing with students at scale. Untrue. Any teacher must be familiar with both the subject matter and basic pedagogy, regardless of whether they're teaching one student or many. Yes, there are additional skills necessary when teaching a larger class, but I think you drastically exaggerate how much of a teacher's job that is.

> Any teacher must be familiar with both the subject matter and basic pedagogy, regardless of whether they're teaching one student or many

I think you are imagining a homeschool from the 1980s. My kids learn many aspects of the subject matter from sources like Khan Academy and Outschooling. The idea that the teacher needs to know the subject matter deeply in order to manage the child's education is obsolete.

Re: Outschooling

#48

Post by surge »

carlob wrote: post #45
hawkesnest wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My children receive a secular homeschool education. They score well on standardized tests, interact well with their peers in extracurricular activities, and have healthy and meaningful relationships with other children and adults in their lives. I recognize that there are some in the homeschool "community" who are ruining their children (imho). For the sake of freedom, I accept that there are terrible people in the w…

I'm sure your kids are great, as you are probably well educated and wealthier than the average. Have you ever asked yourself what is the effect of removing your kids for public schools on the less fortunate? Let me put it another way: most children who have some medical doctor in their extended family don't really need to be visited regularly by a pediatrician. That doesn't really imply that most people who refuse to…

The less fortunate are the ones bullying other children, holding back the curriculum so that no child is left behind, putting someone else's child in harms way because of some undefined benefit to other's with worse parents isn't a fix. Fix the socio economic problems first so those kids have better parents. Don't put my kid in with them thinking its going to socialize other kids better rather than what normally happens is they get harassed and bullied by those who are hostile and the teachers have no power or are apathetic to confront.

It creates greater harm putting good kids in with the bad then it does for the unfortunate but angry, hostile children. Same as it does putting a prisoner in for a non-violent crime with a bunch of felons, they're likely to come out a worse, more hardened criminal. You have this theory that it brings the other kids up, maybe slightly, but often it just brings everyone overall down. Collectivist mentality should be what's the greatest good.

Re: Outschooling

#49

Post by carlob »

camelNotation wrote: post #44
carlob wrote: post #22

I think this is going to be very controversial on the typical HN crowd: maybe too European, or too socialist. However here it goes. Some ten years ago I was convinced that private schools had a right to exist, but that they should never impact the funding of public schools, not even indirectly. Then I discovered that homeschooling was a thing in the US. Now I tend to believe that private schools should not be allowed…

> School is far too important as a social mixer and a way to educate well-rounded citizens to leave it to the whims of parents. Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society. > I also strongly believe that parents whose beliefs prevent their…

> Literally zero evidence for this. On average, kids that are homeschooled walk away with higher levels achievement and fewer psychological issues than their traditionally schooled peers. They integrate just fine into society.

There is plenty of evidence of the contrary though, that kids born in families with low income and educational achievement do much much better when they are in a socially diverse school as opposed to a ghetto. Sure maybe homeschooled kids are slightly better off, but that comes at a huge cost for all the kids who have a single parent who works three jobs that will never be able to afford to homeschool them.

> You don't have kids.

You don't know that.

> But I am still a parent if the social order breaks down and the government disappears.

Every day hundreds of thousands of parents "break down" and government takes over for them. Government breaking down is a much rarer event.

> "secular education"

If you don't like the distinction between secular and religious, you can take any other strong belief. What if my parents are flat earthers? What if they are holocaust deniers? What if they hold some very strong political opinion? Or even what if they are some staunch atheists? They will just create a bubble around their kids.

Re: Outschooling

#50

Post by amirnathoo »

somethoughts wrote: post #26

The one I would be interested in would be "home-after-schooling". I would love to have more resources to help support K-8 students learn how to do original research for science fairs, MOOCs for non-math subjects and programming. Basically Khan Academy type courses that can enable teaching economics, literature, philosophy to a 12 year old. The interesting non-math stuff for Khan Academy doesn't start until 9-12th gra…

It's a matter of focus. We'd love there to be more self-study content available for kids also. But MOOCs have a famously low completion rate and it's hard to stay motivated without interaction. So we're focused on connecting learners and teachers and having them interact over video chat.
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