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Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

theatlantic.com

41–50 of 91 posts

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#41
post #36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science became a new religion. Instead of saying "shut up god made it that way" you say "shut up science says it's that way". You can find hundred of studies to support your arguments, no matter what they are, it's even easier if you don't actually read the studies and stop at the summaries made by popular medias.

Please do find me hundred of studies to support objects on earth falling upwards... newton's gravity is pretty well established within the context it applies to... so in no way can science be compared to religion. There is well established science and science-in-development, which can turn out to be wrong when new evidence is discovered. But for religion there is NO such gradient - everything is based on faith, evide…

However, sadly, many people believe in much more questionably "scientifically" proven things, largely due to how simple scientific proof appears due to things like the absolute acceptance of gravity on earth. Going with the religion analogy, there are many basic facts in religious scriptures which are true but this does not make many of the more questionable statements such as how exactly the earth will be destroyed and where you go when you die to be true.

I completely agree with you that science done properly is not a religion; however, that is simply not the case for most of us who either through lack of care or time will never go beyond seeing a news article about a certain scientific discovery and believing in it due to a supposed scientific breakthrough published in a fancy sounding journal.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#42
post #37
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what you refer to is not Science,its pseudoscience. Pretty much any crap gets published these days, review standards are abysmal and there is hardly any replication. That's like the argument that USSR was not real communism, etc. At some point, science is as science does. There's no some holier, better checked, domain of practice. It is what it is, and it sometimes has replication, more often than not it doesn't.

You are applying the 'no true scotsman' fallacy wrong. Depending on the definition of X, you CAN say that something is not X Only if you define 'science' as 'the thing that people labeled scientists do', can you arrive at your conclusion. I would define scientists as 'people practicing the scientific method'.

>Depending on the definition of X, you CAN say that something is not X

That is a good strategy only if you already have a sample of the thing to derive a definition from.

To create a good definition you should examine reality, and see the thing as it actually behaves, first. Only then, once you have a reality-based definition, you can judge other specimens and use the definition to say whether they are X or not.

Else, you just impose some idealistic / non-empirical standards upon reality based on an arbitrary (since it's not based on observation) definition.

The land and the people existed (as a land and as a people) and gave its name to Scotland (and content to the definition), not the inverse. It wasn't someone making up the word first and others then checking whether the people in Scotland fit it.

>Only if you define 'science' as 'the thing that people labeled scientists do', can you arrive at your conclusion. I would define scientists as 'people practicing the scientific method'.

In real life, people call themselves and are called by others scientists if they have studied for and are employed as such, whether or not they "practice the scientific method" and even more so, whether or not they practice it properly.

So defining scientists as 'people practicing the scientific method' (and e.g. excepting people with Ph.Ds who practice it badly or care to get grants to the detriment of science) is rather the canonical 'no true scotsman' fallacy.

In that sense, no scientist could ever falsify data or make up a theory and cook its research to support it, or prove something that a company paid them a grant to prove, because "by definition" such a person wouldn't be a scientist.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#43
As someone who works on depression GWAS, this isn't the end of finding causal genes for depression, it's the beginning.

In the next few years we're going to see a waterfall of new rare variants linked to disease, all which have a much higher chance of causing functional change.

As WGS comes online for association studies it will both validate and more deeply explore the genetic nature of every disease. It is going to be mindblowing.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#44
post #17
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science became a new religion. Instead of saying "shut up god made it that way" you say "shut up science says it's that way". You can find hundred of studies to support your arguments, no matter what they are, it's even easier if you don't actually read the studies and stop at the summaries made by popular medias.

what you refer to is not Science,its pseudoscience. Pretty much any crap gets published these days, review standards are abysmal and there is hardly any replication. Only thru replication can you actually claim there is Science.

The end result is the same. When a big tv channel says "Eating fat is definitely bad because this study says so" nobody will check the actual study and see that it was done on 3 mice for a duration of 10 days with completely unrealistic settings. It's still science, it's just misinterpreted or extrapolated.

I see it everyday on HN, people _believing_ we'll all migrate to Mars and terraform it by the end of the century which means climate change is a non issue. Or that we'll get fully autonomous cars by 2020 because Elon "Science" Musk said so and people _want_ to _believe_ in it even though absolutely nothing supports it. It really isn't much more than astrological predictions at that point.

People pick whatever "science" supports their make believe-world and go with it.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#45
post #37
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what you refer to is not Science,its pseudoscience. Pretty much any crap gets published these days, review standards are abysmal and there is hardly any replication. That's like the argument that USSR was not real communism, etc. At some point, science is as science does. There's no some holier, better checked, domain of practice. It is what it is, and it sometimes has replication, more often than not it doesn't.

You are applying the 'no true scotsman' fallacy wrong. Depending on the definition of X, you CAN say that something is not X Only if you define 'science' as 'the thing that people labeled scientists do', can you arrive at your conclusion. I would define scientists as 'people practicing the scientific method'.

The 'scientific method', of course, is that which is done by scientists.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#46

It's just naive to pin something as complex as depression on a single variable (but that's Popperian scientificism for you) Now it might be that the 1st study identified an effect on a (very specific) subpopulation and in the bigger study case that subpopulation is not present or not identifiable. But who knows Now of course it's not wrong to study a certain gene, but to go "all in on" a very narrow study path is stu…

>It's just naive to pin something as complex as depression

No it's not. Twin-based heritability studies show depression risk has about 10% heritability across all cases and 50% heritability among severe cases. There is a genetic component to the disease.

That complexity is mediated by dozens of genes, but each one gene contributes a percentage to that heritability. Single genes can and will be found which link genotype to phenotype. It is just a matter of time and money.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#47
post #36
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science became a new religion. Instead of saying "shut up god made it that way" you say "shut up science says it's that way". You can find hundred of studies to support your arguments, no matter what they are, it's even easier if you don't actually read the studies and stop at the summaries made by popular medias.

Please do find me hundred of studies to support objects on earth falling upwards... newton's gravity is pretty well established within the context it applies to... so in no way can science be compared to religion. There is well established science and science-in-development, which can turn out to be wrong when new evidence is discovered. But for religion there is NO such gradient - everything is based on faith, evide…

I agree with what you're saying in general, but there's also problems in play in academics that are broader than just bad statistics. The article tries to convey the nature of this problem, but the "chasing a unreplicable effect" or "science sometimes takes awhile to work itself out" is just the tip of the iceberg.

This touches close to home because it's in my area of research, and for years I had many discussions with colleagues about this very same genetic effect and its problems. This SLC6A4 candidate gene research was not just a fluke of incompetence (unless by incompetence you mean much of an entire biomedical field of researchers), and it persisted wildly, with huge amounts of methodological research and money behind it.

Papers advocating for this type of research (and even more statistically problematic research) were published in Nature, with lots of methodological arguments, by established quantitative experts. This doesn't mean it's correct, just that by all superficial indications, it was solid. You had to question these authority figures, and a body of research, in good journals, the actual nature of the argument, and even then you were branded a naysayer or curmudgeon.

Even when people started questioning the effect, then you had people start advocating for more complex interactions (as intimated at in the article) that just amounted to unintentional (or intentional) data fishing and p-hacking with a theoretical cover.

When I started pointing out how problematic this all was to my colleagues, I had some of them outright explain to me that they thought it might be bunk, but it was popular, and if they found something significant, and it landed them a paper in a prestigious journal, why wouldn't they publish it? That is, you gotta publish what's popular because that's how you build an academic career.

I can't begin to explain all the shady stuff I've seen with the SLC6A4 effect being discussed in this article. Some of it was probably completely unintentional, and some of it probably amounts to conscious p-hacking and fishing.

The worst part about this, that's hard to convey, is that, yes, science probably works itself out eventually most of the time? But there's such a focus on popularity and prestige, fads, regardless of veridicality, and much less so on boring rigor and correctness, that entire careers can be made or broken on complete nonsense. The person who catapaults a completely empty finding to fad status has a career elevated permanently, to a nice named-chair-full professor position. The person who is trying to be rigorous, maybe even dispute the finding or disprove it? Much less clear what happens to them, and often it's a thankless task. That is, the fad makes a career, and even after the fad is discredited, people shrug and say "oh well, that person just happened to have a good idea that was wrong." The people who do the hard work of replicating it, disproving it? Well, that's not interesting or worthwhile to reward.

Academics is really broken, at least in many fields.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#48

Statistics. Garbage in, garbage out. This shows why you have to explicitly quantify statistical power and error model for your study design. Tools are good, but not good enough to do it for you. Then, do calculate effect size instead of a binary answer. You will get answer with a digit in fifth place with a proper size unbiased sample. Note that for proper genome study, the sample size for observational studies is in…

>Statistics. Garbage in, garbage out.

The problem isn't the statistics, and it isn't the solution either. Its the diagnosis data.

How do you quantify if someone is depressed? How depressed are they? How do you compare two people depression? It is an incredibly nebulous disease.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#49
post #43

As someone who works on depression GWAS, this isn't the end of finding causal genes for depression, it's the beginning. In the next few years we're going to see a waterfall of new rare variants linked to disease, all which have a much higher chance of causing functional change. As WGS comes online for association studies it will both validate and more deeply explore the genetic nature of every disease. It is going to…

> As WGS comes online for association studies it will both validate and more deeply explore the genetic nature of every disease. It is going to be mindblowing.

But there is another layer of confusion, because WGS implies resequencing, and resequencing is only as good as your reference genome, and will distort results when the genome you're inferring is to far from the reference (reference bias).

The real mind bend will come when we have thousands or millions of whole genome de novo assemblies and we compare these to each other to do our GWAS. Only then are we going to have a hope of knowing what is actually causal in a genomic sense. Until then we remain in the land of association.

In nature, most adaptive variation appears to be large and structural. All the recent studies that have used whole genome assemblies to look at this have found the same thing. I would be surprised if this isn't the case for humans too. If it is, then much of current perspective on GWAS (both based on chips and WGS) will need to be rewritten.

Re: Depression-Gene Studies Were Built on Shaky Foundations

#50

I think pop sci rags going wild over papers that claim radical breaks are a part of the problem, even if a small one. There's simply no reason that people who are not technical enough to read scientific papers would be up to date on the latest cancer research. People have a right to knowledge? Then open up the journals.

It’s on a slightly different level.

There are strong incentives to find ‘sexy’ results, but this is mostly aimed at getting a paper into Nature, Science, or Cell. Publishing in these journals can have an outsized effect on one’s career, even if the results don’t actually hold up.

In contrast, there’s not a huge pay off for getting something into Popular Science or the New York Times science section. Publicity is good and can help show the relevance of your research. It’s also fun to show your mom (who still wants you to go to med school), but people tend not to chase it nearly as hard as a “glam” paper.

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