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Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

nytimes.com

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Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#41

Post by invalidOrTaken »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #3
marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I'm a sysad in a software business. Sure, the professional developers are paid well. However the more Jira and agile ideas takes over, you become more replaceable. Why? You're just a card-filling machine dealing with feature requests or problem reports. And sure, the next developer may fill less cards, but they will improve with time. And if you don't work in a protected area (federal, etc), then you can buy card-fil…

Who writes the cards?

It's easy to write them, but writing the right ones is much harder. Automate or outsource that and you become a trillionaire. Yes, seriously.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#42

Post by nostrademons »

jaabe wrote: post #34
seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

Is fixing Wordpress really bottom-tier programming jobs? I know people who do that as freelance consultants, and they have a lot of freedom in their lives. Compare that to some enterprise developers who get hired right out of the university to build exactly what they are told, when they are told for long hours until they turn 36 and get replaced. I mean, the latter requires a higher education, which is something that…

I think he's talking about the skill level, defined roughly as how much background knowledge you need to perform the job + how much judgment & concentration + how much creative/analytical thought.

This doesn't necessarily correlate with either remuneration or work environment. There are plumbers in the Bay Area who make more than a theoretical physics post-doc and deal with a lot less stress, but most people would agree that getting a Ph.D in theoretical physics requires more skill than becoming a plumber.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#43

Post by rayiner »

javagram wrote: post #23
jstewartmobile wrote: post #18

" Today, Mr. Davis, 27, is a cybersecurity specialist working on an incident response team at the company. He earns above $40,000, more than twice his salary in retail. " Isn't that like what people at Costco make for running a cash register and being friendly? And who do you think has more job security? edit: To be less coy about it, if you are any good at this stuff and are only making "above $40k", you are getting…

Costco jobs are an outlier in retail as I understand it. $40k/ year in Georgia may be a liveable salary, and if this is an entry level job for him there’s probably the possibility to increase that salary by a 1.5x factor or more over 5 years if he can continue career growth (not sure exactly what a cybersecurity job path looks like, but I assume there is some upward mobility or increased ability to transfer to other…

The explosion in cost of living in places like SF has severely distorted peoples’ views of what is a reasonable salary in the vast majority of the country. $40k/year is a good salary almost anywhere in the US. It’s above the median starting salary for college graduates. For a couple, that’s probably $60,000-70,000 in household income. In my county you can get a 3BR house in a good school district for $200-230k, which is affordable for a family making $60k. And I’m not even in a particularly cheap area (an hour from DC, and these houses are maybe a 15 minute drive from the Metro).

The median household income for a married couple in the US is about $80,000, so two people making $40,000. Although that’s poverty level in San Francisco, that’s a problem with San Francisco, not the country. It’s among the highest in the entire developed world, and a very comfortable life in most places. (Particularly so if, like many Americans have done over the last few decades, you move to a sun belt state where your dollar goes a long way.)

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#44

Post by flukus »

seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

> It's great that $50-80,000 salary jobs can exist for people who have a modicum of software development talent. I'm very happy for these people.

My impression was that these jobs have always existed but are disappearing, we used to call them support developers but that is a job title that seems to have disappeared lately, the jobs themselves seem to be disappearing in our rush to make everyone "full stack" interchangeable parts. Management sees the skill overlap and seem to think their roles can be replaced by real developers, which is a terrible term but I can't think of a better one, this may even be part of the problem.

The even bigger loss is that they could be great entry level roles for bringing less experienced people into the industry.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#45

Post by crazygringo »

frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

Indeed.

A friend of mine wanted to give back and started teaching programming to disadvantaged kids.

He was shocked to ultimately discover that for most of his students, they simply didn't seem to be fundamentally capable of the abstract thought required, and it didn't matter how much time he spent with them. He came away from the experience fairly disillusioned, and I also never expected the difference in ability to be so extreme.

I personally really wonder -- is this something "genetic", like an athletic ability? Is it something learned, but somehow acquired at a young age? Is it a mindset, that we just haven't figured out how to communicate? Or a question of motivation, if it seems "hard" to think that way?

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#46

Post by adventured »

Alex3917 wrote: post #16
marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

> Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs.

> The typical tech job is more like someone getting paid 30k a year to delete porn from Facebook or draw boxes around pictures of stop signs.

No it's not.

There are approximately ~1.3 million people in the US doing software development at extremely high income levels for the top 3/4. Median pay $107,000.

840,000 computer support specialists ('tech support') earning a median of $54,000.

600,000 computer systems analysts earning a median of $90,000.

300,000 computer programmers, earning a median of $84,000.

170,000 Web developers with a median pay of $70,000 per year.

165,000 computer network architects earning a median of $110,000.

120,000 database admins earning a median of $90,000.

100,000 information security analysts earning a median of $100,000.

28,000 Computer and Information Researchers, earning a median of $120,000.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#47

Post by skookumchuck »

devoply wrote: post #10
eropple wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why your post is so defensive. For years , "tech jobs" were marketed as a way to the upper middle class for a broad swath of people (in America and elsewhere). This was not the doing of "two-bit journalists" (and Steve Lohr has a track record of pretty good work!); it was a concerted effort by tech companies . It's turning out to not really be the case and the successful stories are comparatively f…

What should be talked about is what's actually the point of jobs. It's not as a means to get work done so corporations can generate profit. Jobs are a tool to organize society. Profit is a side-effect of that but an irrelevant part the primary function of jobs. This concept of jobs as a tool to organize society rather than a way to solve problems using human "capital" or humans as machines or tools for problem solvin…

Nobody hires another in order to "organize society".

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#48

Post by scarface74 »

seibelj wrote: post #13

There has always been a bottom-tier category of software development, which is programming at the level of "tweaking wordpress websites". Not that all jobs at this level are doing this, but the technical skill is what it takes to setup, configure, operate, and tweak a wordpress website, which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is q…

which requires some understanding of how websites work, web servers, PHP, JavaScript, CSS, a plugin ecosystem, backups, etc. It is quite simple for a software pro, but light years beyond what someone untrained could do.

Most WordPress sites I’ve seen for small businesses are using some type of managed services where the person isn’t dealing with the server.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#49

Post by scarface74 »

marsrover wrote: post #2

I'm tired of the continued devaluation of my profession. Software development (I hate the term "coding") is not a manufacturing job, as much as some company wants it to be. And apprenticeships at body shops isn't going to create software developers, it's just going to create terrible software with obvious rot and decay as the years go own.

I think you overestimate how hard it is to create yet another software as a service CRUD app or a bespoke internal app using your chosen framework.

As far as creating software that last for years, I also think you overestimate the longevity of most software that is being used today.

Re: Tech Jobs Lead to the Middle Class, But Not for the Masses

#50

Post by neonate »

Kinnard wrote: post #30
frankbreetz wrote: post #22

I worked teaching factory workers how to use a software, and can say that no matter how much education and training the majority of these people receive they are not going to become software developers, and it isn't just the older generation. It takes a certain level of abstract thought to be a software developer. The kind of software development jobs that a typical factory worker is capable of are quickly disappeari…

How are you able to assess what they are capable of?

That is part of the teaching process, no?
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