Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs • Hacker News Board

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#41

Post by umvi » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

Drakim wrote: post #31

umvi wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if I make a startup, I should be forced to hire some brilliant programmer whose personality I clash with over over a slightly less brilliant programmer who I can tell will become a fast friend just because the former has demonstrated more technological prowess?

"Hard to work with" is a pretty big minus on somebody's skillset, you don't need to hide it under "culture fit".

I mean, it's just a hunch though. I've only spent an hour or two with the person, I don't know actually know if they would be hard to work with.

Candidate one gives off slightly anti-social vibes but is brilliant, candidate two jokes around with me during the interview and is smart as well, but less so than candidate one. Am I justified in going with candidate two on a hunch?

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#42

Post by _jal » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

aserafini wrote: post #13

ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

As usual, the root problem is that workplaces are made of humans. Yes, "culture fit" can absolutely be used to excuse nastiness. It is also a real thing that seriously matters, and ignoring interpersonal dynamics is a very quick way to kill a startup.

I'd just note that you can smuggle nasty behavior into any formal mechanism. Witness the legal system (which you'd engage here) - whining about bad-faith arguments in court is basically a national sport in the US, until the whiner is the plaintiff.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#43

Post by chrisseaton » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

lalos wrote: post #15

Can someone describe what is a 'senior'? This might be controversial but I see senior title promotions being thrown around just for retention reasons, could it be possible that once you start looking for another 'senior' role at another company they have different expectations of that title? Not to mention you can obtain a 'senior' title by mastering your team's code base and who knows if that knowledge is transferab…

My very first entry-level job was as a 'senior'. I don't think it means anything.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#44

Post by leetcrew » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:26 PM UTC

raiflip wrote: post #38

ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

Eh I see where you're coming from, and most interviews are this way, but I've definitely seen and organized interviews that eschew leetcode problems for very simplified every day problems, and at least imo they can tell you a decent amount. Have 3 or 4 of those in varying skills and you can get a pretty decent idea.

coding portions of an interview should probably be considered as like a bloom filter. it doesn't tell you for sure whom to hire, but it can certainly expose whom not to hire.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#45

Post by 5trokerac3 » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

What ever happened to using a portfolio and references? If a candidate is 10+ years in the business and they don't have a long list of products built and people who can verify the quality of those products, then what information is a fizz-buzz going to give you?

Most egregious example: I interviewed at a household name company, whose entire web stack was built upon a technology I created, and they still gave me a whiteboard test.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#46

Post by SkyBelow » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:27 PM UTC

dsfyu404ed wrote: post #35

aserafini wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

So? Bias isn't illegal unless your pattern of bias lines up with a protected class.

Bias was for protected classes was made illegal for a particular reason, which also applies to a less extent to the non-protected classes. To argue that bias is acceptable along as it isn't explicitly illegal is a stance that seems dangerous when applied to other areas of technology, and many past discussion within this community have shown that many members here are concerned with doing more than the bare legal minimum when it comes to ethical behavior.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#47

Post by padseeker » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

THIS - my experience with interviewing with startups has been very poor. Generally startups are staffed by younger people.

Sometimes those people conducting the interviews are on their first or second job, and generally those younger coders have a tendency to emphasize things like obscure syntax for whatever programming language and the latest programming paradigms. It is overly language centric rather than dealing with how to solve problems. That is a terrible metric for the issue at hand "will this person be an effective at their job".

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#48

Post by GVIrish » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

>But don’t think that you can walk into another job based on market demand and the number of years on your resume. The issue is that there are a lot of programmers who have a lot of years and who consider themselves senior who have very little programming ability. If you have been with a “senior” developer who had no idea how to program but was always telling other people what to do, because he was senior, you know t…

> A truly senior developer who really wants the job, with a few weeks of practice for an hour every night can considerably improve their chances.

Thing is, very good people always have a plethora of options. So a company that tries to make a talented developer jump through somewhat silly hoops, is often going to miss out on that person. Google for example will say, 'we're ok with a lot of false positives' but they are also missing out on outright brilliant people who can make an outsized impact.

The FAANG companies can get away with it to a degree, because their compensation is so high. But there are a bunch of companies out there copying these hiring processes when they can't pay anywhere near what those companies pay, nor offer anything else compelling enough to make up for that.

So on one hand, yes, if you want to get paid the big bucks to work at one of the FAANG companies, you play ball their way and jump through the hoops. But that strategy is not going to work very well for the vast majority of other companies.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#49

Post by joshgachnang » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #8

>But don’t think that you can walk into another job based on market demand and the number of years on your resume. The issue is that there are a lot of programmers who have a lot of years and who consider themselves senior who have very little programming ability. If you have been with a “senior” developer who had no idea how to program but was always telling other people what to do, because he was senior, you know t…

Definitely. I've run into devs with ">10 years of experience" who's coding abilities were closer to that of new grads or 1-2 years of experience.

I'm curious on how HN would filter developers like this. I've been a fan of take home exams, but I know that doesn't work for everyone.

Re: Senior Developers Are Getting Rejected for Jobs

#50

Post by leetcrew » Wed, May 15, 2019, 3:28 PM UTC

aserafini wrote: post #13

ixtli wrote: post #9

We need to admit that the interview process isn't about determining the relative qualifications of the applications in the pool, because we all know that 3 hours and whiteboard can't tell anything you need to know about whether or not that person will perform over the years. We need to acknowledge that we perform this pantomime in order to satisfy layers of management that are unable to accept that you can't hire for…

‘Culture fit’ (without clearly specifying what that means) is such an enormous backdoor for all manner of bias and personal prejudice I’m surprised the concept is even legal.

tbh I don't see a huge issue with a small team of friends wanting to stay a small team of friends. imo, it starts to be problematic when a large (for some definition of "large") employer hires on the basis of culture fit.