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They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

nytimes.com

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Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#41

Post by erentz »

sheeshkebab wrote: post #26

Do these bootcamps ever give programming aptitude tests to people before accepting them into programs? Or is it all about money grab from grants for “learn to code” (which it sounds like it is based on this article)

A lot of them do. This one seems like an outright scam, but for example well known boot camps like Lamba School put you through some tutorials and tests before hand. When you look at these tutorials it really seems to be a filter for “can you teach yourself coding”. IMO making the bootcamps fairly useless given the huge amount of online courseware and free tutorials available now.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#42

Post by jen20 »

asveikau wrote: post #35

> When word spread of a trip by the Mined Minds leadership to a tech conference in Lithuania in November, she saw an opportunity. I am partly of Lithuanian descent. With respect, I don't understand why someone in the US would think to attend a tech conference in Lithuania, when there is a much larger tech industry closer to home.

Have you looked at the line ups of Build Stuff in Vilnius? It has many of the same speakers as QCon, historically at a fraction of the price, and attendees from across Western Europe and the US.

I have priced it out several years running, and with flights from major US cities or (especially) Europe, a hotel and expenses it is substantially cheaper than attending a US conference in the same tier.

Disclaimer: I have worked on the CFP for that conference several times over there last few years, but have no financial interest in the conference.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#43

Post by JoelMcCracken »

DoctorOetker wrote: post #22
tyingq wrote: post #4

Not terribly surprising that 16 weeks of training doesn't make you ready for a coding job. The only way I see that working is a pretty aggressive pre-test that washes out most of the candidates. You'd need some related experience and programming aptitude for 16 weeks to make you employable.

I totally agree about the 16 weeks = 4 months being insufficient: I think we can all agree that most of the coal miners went to school in a different era, and so probably never had much of a high school education, and even if they did we can all agree that half a career in the coal mines (combined with the prospect of working there until retirement) would pretty much obliterate the motivation to keep up your high sch…

I think people need to realize that these boot camps are a start, not an end. They give you the minimal viable education to do the job. After that, you need to keep educating yourself.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#44

Post by hirundo »

RhodesianHunter wrote: post #5

I know I'll catch flak for this, but where did this idea that "anyone can learn to code" come from? Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity, without delving into the capability side. What makes anyone think that they can take a bunch of people who never or barely passed highschool and have been working in a mine for a decade+ and teach them this? By all means subsidize a laptop and point them at some great onli…

> Coding requires a certain drive and curiosity

> By all means subsidize a laptop

If you have a certain drive and curiosity for coding the price of a used low-end laptop is unlikely to be a significant barrier, when adequate new ones are available from Walmart for $159. I just found a 3 year old Chromebook on ebay for $57, or around 10 hours work at the federal minimum wage after taxes. And there's a salutary pride of ownership in earning it. I earned my first computer by working the grill at Burger King. Dreaming of what I'd buy with my wages made finally getting it particularly sweet.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#45

Post by mothsonasloth »

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead]

I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps.

All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have become coders for the wrong reasons like:

* developers have an easy life, getting into work whenever they choose

* they get to wear t-shirts and baggy jeans

* they get all the latest toys to play around with and shiny MacBooks

* I hated my last job, looking at developers on TV in these Silicon valley places looks like the dream life

* I am a single mother who was given the course for free

The others, have aptitude but are so inexperienced from their 3 month session that it will take them atleast two years before they can be fully independant engineers.

These codecamps are licenses to print money it seems, they charge the students a hefty fee for the course and companies then pay a recruitment fee at the end.

Needless to say, I will be leaving my company very soon to go to a place where there is a coding test and filtering to prevent most of these bootcampers from getting in.

Yes its snobby, but I didn't study and spend my student loan on my passion just so I can train up a bunch of people looking for the "easy life".

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#46

Post by vsskanth »

erentz wrote: post #20

The “anyone can code” and “just learn to code” phenomena needs to die in a fire. This reminds me of many other scams in our education system, it’s disgusting how much money is being leeched out of people on private “schools”. This “anyone can code” idea is actually an easy thing to test if we were serious and honest about it. But we are not. And I believe boot camps give a false sense that more people are successful…

As a counter-point, I would like to point out India's IT industry.

When the IT outsourcing industry was booming and there was a serious programmer shortage, outsourcing firms such as Infosys, Cognizant, Tata would hire college graduates en-masse regardless of major (like, entire batch of 20XX would get a job offer). They would then spend 6 months actually training them and weeding out poor performers. The ones who get through would be placed on actual projects for their clients. I do not know if this still happens today due to the sheer number IT majors on offer in India.

Now you can rightly argue with regards to the overall quality of products they created and the culture they proliferated but for their clients it appeared to suffice to achieve their business objectives. Sure most of them won't be FAANG grade but might be totally adequate for making some CRUD app or maintaining some system.

IMO, I don't think one needs a four year degree to code, two years at the max would suffice (obviously not for cutting edge work) . In fact, I would go as far to say beginners can be trained on a good declarative low-code (not low code) guardrails-type DSL incorporating best practices to create simple CRUD or reporting web apps. There have been many attempts but I don't know if this is solved yet.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#47

Post by DoctorOetker »

JoelMcCracken wrote: post #43
DoctorOetker wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I totally agree about the 16 weeks = 4 months being insufficient: I think we can all agree that most of the coal miners went to school in a different era, and so probably never had much of a high school education, and even if they did we can all agree that half a career in the coal mines (combined with the prospect of working there until retirement) would pretty much obliterate the motivation to keep up your high sch…

I think people need to realize that these boot camps are a start, not an end. They give you the minimal viable education to do the job. After that, you need to keep educating yourself.

I somewhat agree for legitimate boot camps, but breaking promises (of payed learning, of job guarantees, ...) while syphoning off subsidies doesn't sound very legitimate.

By the description of the course (google everything yourself), it sounds like it would have been cheaper to study at home...

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#49

Post by mathattack »

mothsonasloth wrote: post #45

[Warning Exremely Controversial Post Ahead] I am currently working for a big corporate in the UK, who have been showing off their "pioneering" and "visionary" strategy to focus recruitment from code boot-camps. All I can say is that as a senior developer, it has made my life misery. I've gone from writing code and producing features, to a full-time mentor and babysitter. Half of the boot-camp graduates I believe have…

Why did your company fall for this?

The only logical reasons I’ve seen are an inability to hire otherwise, and staff moonlighting at the boot camps. Both are bad reasons.

Re: They Were Promised Coding Jobs in Appalachia

#50

Post by sheeshkebab »

erentz wrote: post #41
sheeshkebab wrote: post #26

Do these bootcamps ever give programming aptitude tests to people before accepting them into programs? Or is it all about money grab from grants for “learn to code” (which it sounds like it is based on this article)

A lot of them do. This one seems like an outright scam, but for example well known boot camps like Lamba School put you through some tutorials and tests before hand. When you look at these tutorials it really seems to be a filter for “can you teach yourself coding”. IMO making the bootcamps fairly useless given the huge amount of online courseware and free tutorials available now.

I guess if lamda school has a consistent track record in the industry & companies are hiring from them, i could see that being of value to someone switching careers. (Employers seem to be inept in interviewing for programming positions - and otherwise - On their own)
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