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Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

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Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#41

Post by yostrovs »

bsaul wrote: post #39
yostrovs wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is distasteful only if you think of Hamas as worthy of receiving sympathy. They cut the throats of eight year old children. They fire hundreds of rockets at civilian areas. They keep their own population in dire poverty. They choose extreme religious goals over a better life for their people. I celebrate their destruction. The world is a better place without them.

I completely agree with your point, but OP has also a valid point. The brutality of the situation on the terrain (for the last one hundred year) makes people living there be extremely blunt and down-to-earth. And so saying like "target eliminated, good riddance" when the target in question has tried to kill you numerous times feels completely natural. However, IDF (and israel public relation in general) is also tryin…

I see your point. On the other hand Jews are sick of having to be constantly judged by others, others who are no better than them, and usually ones that are extremely ignorant. For centuries Jews have tried to keep quiet, keep their happiness/sadness to themselves, stay out of the way of the gentiles. That didn't work. The Israeli Jew is a different Jew, who is proud and will fight when necessary. That's just how it is now and the new Jew won't be constantly succumbing to the desires of ignorant antisemites.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#42

Post by rvp-x »

toyg wrote: post #30

Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully bombed. If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized ? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the net…

The cold war was not honorable. You let non-US/soviets do the actual fighting. In almost every other conflict on the world, the US and Soviets were picking sides and supporting militants. Millions were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_pr...

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#43

Post by kmlx »

aptidude187 wrote: post #16
kmlx wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is such a long and convoluted conflict... israel withdrew from gaza in 2005, but kept control of access points, air travel etc making gaza a weird place, partly under israel control. hamas (basically a terrorist org) literally took over gaza from fatah (a nationalist party) in a war in 2007. then you’ve got the islamic jihadis, a bonafide terror org, which started taking over from hamas, in the same gaza strip.…

"this is such a long and convoluted conflict" - Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism, anyone who claims that this is a "complex" conflict is either ignorant or deliberately trying to confuse people. Recommended reading from Theodor Herzl (founding father of zionism) to Noam Chomsky (secular jewish intellectual) for those who are truly interested in the facts: The Jewish State (Der Judenstaat)…

> Not really, this is just a simple case of settler colonialism

wrong on so many level it's not even funny.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#44

Post by kmlx »

aptidude187 wrote: post #26
meirdavis wrote: post #24

It's pathetic watching people from the safety of their own homes commenting on how Israel should be waging war. Israelis are being killed and if Hamas had their way they would go over the border and massacre all Israelis in sight. No other democracy is currently fighting a war against a neighbor that's shooting missiles at them and located only a few km from 80% of their population. Israel's use of kid gloves against…

Poor Israel, can't even dehumanise, colonise a people, drive them out of their homes and kill them without being criticised. You are dishing out the same old washed out propaganda and people know it's utter bullshit. Israel is the coloniser and the oppressor no matter how hard you push your propaganda, people can see the evidence from too many sources now, even secular jewish ones. Israeli Solider testimony [ https:/…

what's up with this infantilism that's going around in your posts?

you know this is a complex issue, but still prefer to ignore the facts. seems to me you have an agenda.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#46

Post by toyg »

rvp-x wrote: post #42
toyg wrote: post #30

Am I the only one to see echoes of Cold War stories, with spies and spymasters respecting each other and The Game more than they do their own military personnel...? It’s like Smiley had been told Karla’s office was purposefully bombed. If humans ever managed to eventually move most or all conflicts to cyber methods, would that make us more civilized ? Are we turning war into a game of bits, or are we tainting the net…

The cold war was not honorable. You let non-US/soviets do the actual fighting. In almost every other conflict on the world, the US and Soviets were picking sides and supporting militants. Millions were killed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_proxy_wars#Cold_War_pr...

"You" who? I'm Italian, and from a city (Bologna) who suffered hundreds of casualties as a result of being on the actual front line of the Cold War.

Of course all wars are dirty, in one way or the other; but there is a spectrum, and there was certainly an element of honour code in a lot of the spying activities going on in Europe at the time - particularly in places like Germany and England.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#47

Post by acct1771 »

bradleyhb wrote: post #15
CommanderData wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Opposing a state does not equate to having "hatred" of Jewish people. To no surprise, Israel with its history and conception will warrant criticism and even disgust from anyone. The same goes for any other state that acts similarly. My feeling are not exclusive to Israel, stealing land (to the degree of perfection) and oppressing minorities daily is pretty telling of Israels precieved superiority over others.

“Stealing land” is how, through economic disparity, most modern nations have been born and grown, has it not?

Now you two are moving the goalposts if this meta-thread.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#48

Post by bsaul »

yostrovs wrote: post #41
bsaul wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree with your point, but OP has also a valid point. The brutality of the situation on the terrain (for the last one hundred year) makes people living there be extremely blunt and down-to-earth. And so saying like "target eliminated, good riddance" when the target in question has tried to kill you numerous times feels completely natural. However, IDF (and israel public relation in general) is also tryin…

I see your point. On the other hand Jews are sick of having to be constantly judged by others, others who are no better than them, and usually ones that are extremely ignorant. For centuries Jews have tried to keep quiet, keep their happiness/sadness to themselves, stay out of the way of the gentiles. That didn't work. The Israeli Jew is a different Jew, who is proud and will fight when necessary. That's just how it…

I know that's how many israeli feel, however you should note that everybody's judging everybody those days, not just Israel (although Israel most certainly has a special treatment at the UN, but that's another story).

International relationships now has become a game of trying to look as peaceful as possible, even when you're waging war in some remote locations, or strong-arming entire regions. That fact that Israel choose to say "f*ck off, we know we're doing this for a good reason", and be blunt, is absolutely entirely against the general etiquette. I really think Israel should be more careful with that.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#49

Post by yostrovs »

bsaul wrote: post #48
yostrovs wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see your point. On the other hand Jews are sick of having to be constantly judged by others, others who are no better than them, and usually ones that are extremely ignorant. For centuries Jews have tried to keep quiet, keep their happiness/sadness to themselves, stay out of the way of the gentiles. That didn't work. The Israeli Jew is a different Jew, who is proud and will fight when necessary. That's just how it…

I know that's how many israeli feel, however you should note that everybody's judging everybody those days, not just Israel (although Israel most certainly has a special treatment at the UN, but that's another story). International relationships now has become a game of trying to look as peaceful as possible, even when you're waging war in some remote locations, or strong-arming entire regions. That fact that Israel…

I'd agree with you if the "everybody's judging everybody" would be an accurate way of putting it. There's a lot more judging done of Israel than of other countries. If the judging would be comparable between cases, then yes, but regardless of what Israel does it will be judged poorly. So the hell with them in that Hamas office that is no more.

Re: Ex-NSA man slams Israel for strike on alleged Hamas cyber attackers

#50

Post by chachachoney »

yostrovs wrote: post #37
chachachoney wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any evidence that there were actually rockets fired from the building which housed the attackers? If so, please solidify your point and contribute to the discussion by providing it. Equating criticism of either Israel or Zionism with anti-Semitism does real disservice to the victims of actual anti-Semitism both past and present.

Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war?

> Do you really know there is a war in Israel? Did you see it? Do you even consider firing of hundreds of rockets at Jews a war?

If this were a turing test, the above message would fail.

Is this really how you approach discourse on a forum? Hypertext was invented for the purpose of annotating documents (and now conversations) with links to other sources.

Also, falling back on an epistemological crisis in a discussion such as this is a bad faith argument.

Good day.

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