Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts • Hacker News Board

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#41

Post by ptr » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:37 PM UTC

cf141q5325 wrote: post #39

ptr wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It seems that wasnt the case for most subs", according to whom? The book you're referencing? Read the abstract: "After a Soviet Whiskey submarine was stranded in 1981 in the Swedish archipelago ... Today, all evidence for Soviet intrusions appears to have been manipulated, or simply invented. " so NATO would steal a Soviet sub, fill it with Soviet navy guys, and bash it against the Swedish shoreline? Seems reasonabl…

The Swedish government back then attributed only two of these submarines to the soviets, one of them being the stranded Whiskey sub. The second case was also later disputed. I think you understand that the author isnt talking about the Whiskey sub being invented or staged. To "most", the sentences after your quote is the interesting one. > Classified documents point to covert US and UK activity. Former US secretary o…

The Swedish government is and was very cautious to not point fingers without having proof. Getting proof is often hard when it comes to submarines. Unless they get beached on your islands...

According to the article you're linking: "'NATO subs never entered Swedish waters without being given approval beforehand,' Weinberger said."

Sweden dropped depth charges on these submarines. You think the Swedish government would invite NATO subs just to drop bombs on them?

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#42

Post by 0_gravitas » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:41 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #20

sgift wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US does bad things does not invalidate the bad things China and Russia do. You sound like someone who gets a speeding ticket and answers "but everyone else is speeding too! Why do you punish me?!"

I rarely see negative threads about the US on hackernews, but not a day goes by without the regular anti chinese/russian propaganda, especially concerning military and/or technology.

You are clearly not looking then

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#43

Post by 0_gravitas » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:43 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #31

cpursley wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing Russia is interested in invading in Europe are the beaches and Gucci stores. Even the French have a larger and more modern military than the Russian Federation...

Russia literally invaded Ukraine 5 years ago. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annexation_of_Crimea_by_the_...

I'm sorry sir, you must be mistaken, those were just Ukrainian soldiers wearing Russian uniforms and using Russian weapons, happens all the time

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#44

Post by hombre_fatal » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:45 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #20

sgift wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That the US does bad things does not invalidate the bad things China and Russia do. You sound like someone who gets a speeding ticket and answers "but everyone else is speeding too! Why do you punish me?!"

I rarely see negative threads about the US on hackernews, but not a day goes by without the regular anti chinese/russian propaganda, especially concerning military and/or technology.

Thanks for the chuckle, but shitting on the USA is one of our favorite passtimes on HN as Americans, so it kinda makes your "b-b-but what about the USA" here into a trite eye-roll.

It's like complaining HN never talks shit about Javascript in a submission that shits on PHP.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#45

Post by cf141q5325 » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:46 PM UTC

ptr wrote: post #41

cf141q5325 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swedish government back then attributed only two of these submarines to the soviets, one of them being the stranded Whiskey sub. The second case was also later disputed. I think you understand that the author isnt talking about the Whiskey sub being invented or staged. To "most", the sentences after your quote is the interesting one. > Classified documents point to covert US and UK activity. Former US secretary o…

The Swedish government is and was very cautious to not point fingers without having proof. Getting proof is often hard when it comes to submarines. Unless they get beached on your islands... According to the article you're linking: "'NATO subs never entered Swedish waters without being given approval beforehand,' Weinberger said." Sweden dropped depth charges on these submarines. You think the Swedish government woul…

The swedish government didnt tell their population which saw dozens of submarines and went in to a panic expecting a soviet invasion.

Again, the whole quote:

>Many military officials and politicians said they had never heard of the NATO exercises.

>``You need some sort of agreement to do a thing like this. But I know nothing of such an agreement,″ said Admiral Per Rudberg, head of the navy from 1978 to 1984.

>Current Defense Minister Bjoern von Sydow said he was surprised, but added, ``I have no reason to question what a former U.S. defense secretary is saying.″

The head of the navy didnt know.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#46

Post by 0_gravitas » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:47 PM UTC

Deutschland wrote: post #40

StavrosK wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it got trapped in it pretty damn neatly, with one part behind the fun and one on its "neck". It's like my dog getting randomly tangled in its chest harness with the legs in the right position.

How many whale-sized harnesses are just floating around in the sea anyway?

If this was 10 years ago and not hackernews I'd be able to find a yo-mamma joke somewhere in here...

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#47

Post by ptr » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:51 PM UTC

cf141q5325 wrote: post #45

ptr wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Swedish government is and was very cautious to not point fingers without having proof. Getting proof is often hard when it comes to submarines. Unless they get beached on your islands... According to the article you're linking: "'NATO subs never entered Swedish waters without being given approval beforehand,' Weinberger said." Sweden dropped depth charges on these submarines. You think the Swedish government woul…

The swedish government didnt tell their population which saw dozens of submarines and went in to a panic expecting a soviet invasion. Again, the whole quote: >Many military officials and politicians said they had never heard of the NATO exercises. >``You need some sort of agreement to do a thing like this. But I know nothing of such an agreement,″ said Admiral Per Rudberg, head of the navy from 1978 to 1984. >Current…

Sweden was already expecting a soviet invasion.

OK, so you're arguing that the government invited NATO without letting the navy know? That sounds incredibly risky. Again, Occam's razor.

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#48

Post by YeahSureWhyNot » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:54 PM UTC

_iyig wrote: post #10

lm28469 wrote: post #9

Have you seen the harness ? [0] You might be able to strap a gps or a camera on it, but a weapon ?! What's up with all the articles "russia/china bad" popping up recently ? > In 1980s Soviet Russia, a programme saw dolphins recruited for military training Yeah, just like any nation with enough defence budget. Dolphins/sea lions [1], dogs, rats [2], &c. are used all the time. [0] https://www.sciencealert.com/mysteriou…

Well, Russia recently invaded a European country, assassinated several people in the U.K., got caught using spies to infiltrate U.S. political parties, hacked the emails of a U.S. presidential candidate while meeting secretly with her opponent (who may or may not be massively in the Russian government’s debt), and resumed air attack drills on NATO countries. So, a lot of English-speaking people see Russia as the “bad…

you must be watching CNN all day long

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#49

Post by azangru » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 1:55 PM UTC

skilled wrote: post #21

basetop wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd stopped consuming so much cable news, it can rot your brain. And why did you edit out "China's human rights may be even worse" from your comment? That's certainly something that is up for debate. "English-speaking people"? What's that? Russia does bad things. China does bad things. The EU does bad things. We do bad things. What's strange is the sudden hysteria and relentless propaganda directed towards china and…

Well, actually, it's the government with your money that does bad things. You are subscribed to the government and won't do anything about it. So, it's actually mostly your fault (society). Until people decide this is not the way of life, this circle will continue until extinction.

> and won't do anything about it

We vote. The only legal democratic tool to "do anything about it", isn't it? Only our vote is a minority one that doesn't count much.

And what the hell is "society", anyway? Given that, say, 70 percent of the population votes one way and 30 percent the other way, is there any fault with the 30 percent? Are they "society"?

Re: Whale with harness could be Russian weapon, say Norwegian experts

#50

Post by cf141q5325 » Tue, Apr 30, 2019, 2:07 PM UTC

ptr wrote: post #47

cf141q5325 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The swedish government didnt tell their population which saw dozens of submarines and went in to a panic expecting a soviet invasion. Again, the whole quote: >Many military officials and politicians said they had never heard of the NATO exercises. >``You need some sort of agreement to do a thing like this. But I know nothing of such an agreement,″ said Admiral Per Rudberg, head of the navy from 1978 to 1984. >Current…

Sweden was already expecting a soviet invasion. OK, so you're arguing that the government invited NATO without letting the navy know? That sounds incredibly risky. Again, Occam's razor.

It doesnt really matter what I claim, what we know is sufficient and we have that already quoted here.

> Classified documents point to covert US and UK activity. Former US secretary of defense Caspar Weinberger stated that Western submarines operated ‘regularly’ and ‘frequently’ in Swedish waters in order to ‘test’ the Swedish coastal defences, and former British navy minister Sir Keith Speed confirms the existence of such operations. Royal Navy submarine captains admit having carried out top-secret operations in Swedish waters, and that a member of Cabinet signed approval for every single operation

as well as

>Many military officials and politicians said they had never heard of the NATO exercises.

>``You need some sort of agreement to do a thing like this. But I know nothing of such an agreement,″ said Admiral Per Rudberg, head of the navy from 1978 to 1984.

>Current Defense Minister Bjoern von Sydow said he was surprised, but added, ``I have no reason to question what a former U.S. defense secretary is saying.″

To summarize, we know that both the US and the UK have carried out submarine incursions into swedish waters, the US on a "frequent and regular base". We also know, that the head of the Swedish Navy did not know these operations, "to test Swedish costal defenses" took place.

So unless you are arguing the source (which source, AP?) is doctored, I really dont understand what you are trying to do with Occam's razor.

On the implications of these informations: If we are arguing about the effect on the Swedish population as well as on the government, I think it would be fair to summarize the period as Sweden getting more and more nervous with one sub sighting after another. Which at the time was assumed to be soviet subs by the public, leading to an increased fear of a soviet invasion and a more positive view on becoming a NATO member. Sweden is a democracy, the populations view is rather important.