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Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

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Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#41
post #31
post #22

It's not illegal to drive down prices in a competitive environment. In fact, economic theory says that in a sector that has 'perfect' competition, prices will essentially be the cost of production. What Amazon is currently doing isn't illegal. In the future, if they abuse their dominant position to jack up prices, they might be in some trouble. But running on thin margins isn't illegal, and it seems Amazon has create…

It is illegal to do this when you slip below the cost of production line - at that point your lost profit becomes an investment (if you're doing it right) in either securing long term profits[1] (printers and toner) or driving competitors out of business (predatory pricing[2] or possibly dumping[3] if done for market control) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predatory_pr…

From the article:

> 5 percent profit margin on Amazon’s own retail sales

Last I checked, 5 percent margin is still making a profit, and definitely doesn't fit the definition of dumping nor predatory pricing.

Part of the theory hinges on this:

> However, Sussman asserts in his paper, “Amazon utilizes existing loopholes in Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) disclosure regulations to exclude a significant portion of its expenses.”

> Amazon accomplishes this in part through using capital leases to purchase equipment and some of its 288 million square feet of office space. Instead of paying cash, Amazon borrows and finances these purchases over time. The leases don’t show up as expenses in Amazon’s free cash flow calculations, even though the equipment is listed as an asset. A 2017 Motley Fool report showed that, when you add in capital leases, Amazon’s 2017 cash flow was indeed over $1 billion in the red, although more recent numbers have bounced back.

Again though, there's nothing illegal about a firm using debt to finance expansion, nor is there anything illegal about a firm's net profit being negative, especially if there's positive cashflow from selling to consumers.

The whole article is nothing more than theories without any proof that Amazon is actually dumping products. And like I said, running thin margins isn't illegal. Undercutting your competition isn't illegal. Scaling out so your costs are less than your competition isn't illegal. You need to prove that a firm is actually dumping, it's not enough to think that they might be because they're out-competing you.

More from the article:

> As Sussman explains, if Amazon is recouping losses from a predatory pricing scheme by reducing its costs, the windfall profits aren’t being transferred to customers.

Reducing their costs to realize a profit literally is passing on the benefits to customers by continuing to sell at a low price.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#42
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Loss leaders are not universally legal, they are legal in some US states and illegal in others[1] - this may actually be a giant can of poo that's heading towards Amazon now that most states are agreed sales tax should apply to online purchases. Personally I find that loss leader pricing is unethical in a free economy, but my opinion isn't US law. [1] https://www.aeaweb.org/research/loss-leading-bans-retail-com...

Can you explain why you feel that it's unethical? That's not something I've ever thought to consider one way or the other.

I think that loss leading leads to device or producer lock in (as it's intended to) and limited the utility of devices for frivolous reasons - if your nuclear reactor specifically requires rods with little notches at the end feel free to warn and protect against incompatible notches, but if that notch requirement was to lock the consumer into your Atomizer Brand Rods(R) then you may force a consumer into making fiscally unsound choices down the line, preventing a new competitor with a genuinely improved (possibly even safer) product from being able to compete fairly. Loss leading is just another barrier to entry that incumbent companies can establish to prevent free competition.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and then doing what the systems tell them is the most profitable." ...so, not predatory pricing then?

It seems to me that, by this description, Amazon is admirably fulfilling its legal and fiscal duties, and to a greater degree than I thought before receiving this information.

Maybe to the shareholders but definitely not to the consumers or the businesses on the platform.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#44

Amazon has a team called "Amazon Profitability Group". I used to work for said team, albeit only briefly. The purpose of the team is to calculate the proper price to sell items for, the "discount" to vendors, and the items to put in the "buy box" in order to make the most profit for Amazon. I think the what is described here in the article is only the tip of the iceberg. Amazon isn't doing something as simplistic as…

"and then doing what the systems tell them is the most profitable." ...so, not predatory pricing then?

Depends. Did they intentionally go out of their way to teach the model that predatory pricing, despite being profitable, is not allowed?

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#45

Amazon has a team called "Amazon Profitability Group". I used to work for said team, albeit only briefly. The purpose of the team is to calculate the proper price to sell items for, the "discount" to vendors, and the items to put in the "buy box" in order to make the most profit for Amazon. I think the what is described here in the article is only the tip of the iceberg. Amazon isn't doing something as simplistic as…

"and then doing what the systems tell them is the most profitable." ...so, not predatory pricing then?

That doesn't follow.

If predatory pricing is effective, an algorithm can be taught, or learn to, exploit it if fed with the right data.

This, quite obviously, shouldn't change anything regarding the potential legality, as it's entirely self evident that a sufficiently powerful machine learning algorithm will exploit any patterns not expressly forbidden.

As always, the responsibility for following the laws, and making sure these extensions of our own agency we call machines also follow the same laws fall on whomever is making the machine act in their stead.

One can however be assured that several companies will argue otherwise, argue as if they were simply a victim of some sort. Which might be true in a sense. Victims of their own devices, both figuratively and almost literally at the same time.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"and then doing what the systems tell them is the most profitable." ...so, not predatory pricing then?

Depends. Did they intentionally go out of their way to teach the model that predatory pricing, despite being profitable, is not allowed?

why does it matter that the decision came out of an AI model?

Predatory pricing is either legal or not (in the eyes of the court, or legislations).

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#47

Economically speaking, the question should boil down to "is Amazon operating in a contestable market, and/or are they engaging in abusive behavior to raise barriers to entry in the market, lowering its contestability". The notion of predatory pricing per se , in contrast, is not really well-defined. Is there some inherent reason why the suppliers and wholesalers who are supposedly being harmed by this monopoly could…

It should, but the "consumer welfare standard" explicitly repudiates such approach. In US, a company can be a complete monopoly, wiping out all competition, and still not cross the line for anti-trust purposes.

This is actually kinda ironic, given that US is generally considered to be more on the side of the spectrum that strongly believes in the "invisible hand of the market" - and so it would make more sense for anti-trust to be defined in terms that would protect that hand from being "broken". And indeed, it was so defined originally, until this new standard came to be. Since then, we've seen steadily increasing market concentration [1], and the corresponding decline in competition, all while being assured that it's not harmful to us as consumers, and with some people even openly extolling the virtues of monopolies for consumers (e.g. Thiel).

To me, these sound very similar to the arguments that are used to justify "benevolent dictatorships", except here we're talking about economic power rather than political (and, of course, the two are not independent).

[1] https://concentrationcrisis.openmarketsinstitute.org/

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#48
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends. Did they intentionally go out of their way to teach the model that predatory pricing, despite being profitable, is not allowed?

why does it matter that the decision came out of an AI model? Predatory pricing is either legal or not (in the eyes of the court, or legislations).

We are in agreement on that. The point that I was attempting to make was that an AI model will do exactly what it was trained to do. If a model is trained to maximize profit without consideration for the law, then it will find all the unethical and illegal ways to price goods.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#49
Companies achieving a kind of monopoly status should be subject to additional financial disclosures and reporting. The benefit here is (1) not all companies need to meet this compliance standard (2) we get a much better look into the books to determine if there is something illegal/nefarious going on (3) this additional reporting gives upstarts an insight to chip away at any monopoly by having access to data that sustains that monopoly in the first place. Let’s not use a heavy hand of busting up a company, just let capitalism do the work.

Re: Is Amazon Violating U.S. Antitrust Laws?

#50
>Sellers can use “Fulfillment by Amazon,” so Amazon handles storage and shipping of its products through its vast logistics network. But Amazon also charges for that privilege.

We used to call this kind of activity a ‘service’ but apparently it’s now called a ‘privilege’

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